The Lotus Sutra

[Jikan]

I agree with you on principle if not on all the specifics, Noah. I'm an upholder of the Lotus Sutra.

I think one of the great virtues of the text is its openness to interpretation. This is one of the reasons it seems so immediate to many people in my opinion.

This might be of interest to you:

http://www.tendai.eu/82.html

[Noah]

Jikan- yessir and thank you for the link! I only intend to state my understanding of the Sutra from my individual perspective. I do feel a bit boxed in on this thread at present, I have had multiple insightful moments while studying the Lotus Sutra and my understanding of it has evolved greatly and is still growing Some of the ideas that flow from the Lotus Sutra have been, on this thread, denied before any exploration has been made, I feel as if I have had to ASSERT a position just to bring the viewpoint to a level of "open-mindedness."
I think it is a wonderfully telling passage when, early in the sutra, 5000 of the assembly rises from their seat and leave just as the Buddha states that he will expound the teaching that is beyond their understanding. We must always know that we DON'T KNOW. Or else we become a hindrance to ourselves. The Buddha initially refuses to speak the Lotus Sutra to the assembly because of these arrogant persons because just their presence hinders the understanding of others who are/were receptive.

Noah

[rory]

Shakyamuni, the Eternal Buddha saves Everybody.

Chapter of the Parable” 3:first, the Buddha Shakyamuni proclaims, “Now these three worlds are all my own; the beings therein are
all my children. But now this place has many calamities and hardships; I alone can guard and save them.”

“I likewise am the Father of the World, The One who saves from the various sufferings and travails.” (“Chapter of the Measure of Life of the Tathagata” 16) Thus it is the Buddha Shakyamuni,revealed as the Eternal Buddha, who is truly compassionat rescuer of the unsavable!

And the Eternal Buddha does so in Ch. 12 Devadatta; where Devadatta the most evil opponent of the Buddha becomes a buddha! The Eternal Buddha saves everybody.

2. The Lotus Sutra teaches us to abandon the former expedient teachings:

“I forthrightly abandon expedience and only preach the Supreme Way.” (“Chapter of Expedience” 2 (T.9.10a))
Pure Land and other teachings are expedients and the Eternal Buddha Shakaymuni preaches the One Vehicle:

The Lotus Sutra says in the “Chapter of the Parable” (T.9.16a), “Only rejoicing to receive and keep the Great Vehicle Sutra Canon, not even receiving one verse of other Sutras”;

Also “Chapter 21: the Divine Powers of the
Tathagata” 21 states: “For that reason you, after the
Tathagata’s Extinction, should single-mindedly receive and
keep, read and recite, explain and preach, copy and write,
and practice in accordance with the preaching.”

3. Common People can keep and follow the teaching of the Lotus Sutra!

after the Extinction of the Tathagata, if they hear this Sutra and do not disparage it but give rise to the mind of following joy, you should know it is already the aspect of profound faith and understanding.” (The “Chapter of the Distribution of Merits” 17

so ordinary people need just a mind of joy not understanding

The Lotus Sutra is not something meant for great sages alone; it has nothing to do with entering into a trance (samadhi) and so on. Thus the Universal Worthy Sutras (P'u-hsien-ching/Fugenkyo) says one who practices “though not entering samadhi, only recites and keeps” (T.9.389c)

and the 6th Patriach of the Tien Tai School , Myoraku Daishi (Chan-jan) comments:, “With unconcentrated (lit., “scattered”) minds reciting the Dharma Flower (Hokke) without entering trance and samadhi, sitting, standing, or walking single-mindedly think on the characters of the Dharma Flower. ” (Maka shikan bugyo den guketsu 2-
2.18v (T.46.192c).

So Keeping & the Lotus Sutra does not require samadhi! Ordinary people just need to recite and think on the Sutra.

The Buddha Shakyamuni, the Eternal Buddha, tells us to discard previous teaching and devote ourself to the Lotus Sutra and ordinary people can do so and become Buddhas.
gassho
Rory

[rory]

Now as for the buddhahood of insentient beings, called in Japanese somoku jobutsu, Chan-jan, the 6th T'ient t'ai patriarch was the one who famously asserted in the Ching-kang pei (The Diamond Scalpel) that if phenomena are none other than suchness, then it becomes meaningless to say that sentient beings have the Buddha nature, but insentient beings do not." (Stone, Original Enlightenment p. 9
Stone continues that the Buddhahood of insentient objects was a profound influence on Tendai and Japanese Buddhism (p. 9)

Chih-I (Zhiyi) the first patriarch of T'ien T'ai also derived the principle of 10,000 thoughts in one thought moment (Jap. ichinen sanzen) from the Lotus Sutra. There is a reason the Lotus Sutra is called the 'king of sutras' by all Mahayana, why the Buddha taught it for the remaining years of his life & then the Nirvana Sutra on his deathbed.

with gassho
Rory

[Mr. G]

It was said earlier in this thread (in an attempt to downplay the sutra and feign understanding) that it is "overloaded with metaphors explaining the same ideas again and again." Reducing it down in this way is perhaps the easiest way to miss the points and fully misunderstand the differences between the many stories and parables.

Some of the ideas that flow from the Lotus Sutra have been, on this thread, denied before any exploration has been made

Noah,

What you fail to see is that some people do understand the Lotus Sutra. Investigation and explorations have been made...it's just that some people don't think it's a sutra that possesses the depth of other sutras (or tantras for that matter). Everyone favors certain sutras over others.

[Aemilius]

Lotus sutra contains and explains important ideas that are not easily found in other sutras, that is for example:

1. There are periods of Dharma and Adharma that each Tathagata's teaching and assembly will go through.
2. The intiation and prophecy is conferred on Buddha's disciples that they will all become Buddhas in the future, through a long period of further practice.
3.That his Parinirvana is illusory, merely a skillful means.
4. It describes an event, or series of events, that actually happened during the life time of Buddha Shakyamuni.

[Noah]

Mr. G....I see that some people do understand the Lotus Sutra. I believe that there were statements made that reduce the meaning of the Lotus Sutra when, in the thread, no exposition or exploration has been made. just declarative statements. I then cite them and stated how, from my understanding, they were lacking an understanding of the text. If someone sees my conclusions as wrong, I welcome discussion. The Lotus Sutra can surely be seen from many different points of view without taking away from it's impact and meaning. I did not join this site to teach and I am sorry that here it seems as if I have been stating my own understanding as "true" when in fact it is only MY PERSONAL UNDERSTANDING. I do believe the Sutra can be misunderstood and will defend ANY Buddhist text in the face of what I see as confusion and/or misinterpretation.
As you can see, the same simple points have not been defended after I have replied, I welcome a back and forth over any point if there is indeed more to grasp and explore.

Thank you for your point of view, ALL, it is appreciated

A quote popped to mind as soon as I was thinking of this response here and I hope we can all (me included) continue with respect to its nature. It is from that well-known modern storyteller Quentin Tarantino- "He who ceases to make declarative statements is less likely to look foolish in retrospect." In short, question first, understand later.

Noah

[rory]

I'll be back with more material, but let me add that Saicho, Dengyo Daishi, the founder of the Japanese Tendai School locates the famous concept of buddhahood in this very body (sokushin jobutsu) in the story of the Dragon King's Daughter. [there is ongoing discussion whether he or Kukai originally proposed this docrine] It's a hugely influential parable, the great minds drew concepts from the parables.
so let's see: ichinen sanzen, somoku jobutsu, sokushin jobutsu all derived from the Lotus Sutra.

[Astus]

so let's see: ichinen sanzen, somoku jobutsu, sokushin jobutsu all derived from the Lotus Sutra.

It is important to make a difference between what are actually stated in the sutra itself, and what are the creations of commentators. For instance, the idea of buddhahood in this body became prominent in Japan and it was argued from two different perspectives using different scriptural sources. Since the Lotus Sutra was already well known in China and the concept of buddhahood in this body was not really used, it's hard to say that it is in the Lotus Sutra, but rather Saicho used the Lotus Sutra to back up this idea.

[Tatsuo]

I can recall no occasion in the history of Buddhism where the Lotus Sutra was the first Buddhist text to be introduced to a culture or that it had a significantly larger influence on a culture than other Buddhist teachings. (...) Nichiren Buddhism, however, is only one of the smaller traditions in Japan making it less influential than several other schools.

The Lotus Sutra was one of the first Sutras to be introduced to Japan and Shotoku Taishi is said to have held lectures on this Sutra. The influence of the Lotus Sutra on Japanese culture continued throughout the religious history of Japan: Many stories of the setsuwa genre and ojoden feature practices related to the Lotus Sutra. In addition to that, Tendai was one of the most influential schools and today the Nichiren derived schools of Buddhism including the so-called new religions based on Nichiren constitute the largest Buddhist tradition in Japan. I would argue, that the Lotus Sutra - alongside the Pure Land tradition of course - had an enormous influence on Japanese culture - much more than the "elitist" Zen schools. Where did you get the idea, that Nichiren Buddhism is one of the smaller traditions in Japan?

* popular Buddhist tales that were propagated to lecture the illiterate population, who could not study Buddhist texts
** stories about birth in the Pure Land

[Astus]

Where did you get the idea, that Nichiren Buddhism is one of the smaller traditions in Japan?

What I meant is that it is among the smaller ones among the big traditional churches. I didn't mean it's like some new religion with a few thousand followers.

Here's some statistics (source):

Shingonshu has 12,000 temples and 13.8 millions followers.
Shinshu has about 20,000 temples and 13.3 million followers.
Sotoshu has 15,000 temples and 6.9 million followers.
Tendaishu has 4,200 temples and 6.9 million followers.
Jodoshu has 8,000 temples and 6.5 million followers.
Nichirenshu has 5,200 temples and 3.3 million followers.

More statistics with all the sub-schools: 仏教界データ リンク集

[Aemilius]

I am astonished, are the Zen schools then a small minority ?!

[Astus]

I am astonished, are the Zen schools then a small minority ?!

Zen schools (Soto + Rinzai + Obaku) have about 20,000 temples throughout Japan and 8.7 million followers. But of course, if you compare that to the 128 million population of Japan, it is not so big, only 6.8%. Not to mention that these official numbers don't say much of actual religious practice.

[rory]

Adherents.com has 31 million Nichiren Buddhists in Japan as of 1993 , of that group only 2 million come from traditional sects like mine Kempon Hokke or Nichiren Shu. I have no ideas what the numbers today are for Soka Gakkai, Rissho Kosei Kai etc
http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/Wh_165.html
gasso
rory

[Noah]

I hope that any here that are taking part in the conversation have a copy of the Lotus Sutra with which to read and compare. To really "dig into" the Sutra in group fashion, I think it is best to take the parables on in the order they appear in the text. Some are the Buddha speaking and teaching, others are members of the assembly using a story to convey their understanding of what the Buddha is teaching. The Chapter "tactfulness" is enough for Sariputra (the wisest of all the disciples) to understand that all of the teachings that the Buddha has given before were just skillful means. That, truly, there is one great vehicle (bodhisattva vehicle) that is the sole cause of the Buddha's appearance in the world and the true aim of all his teaching. Sariputra is overjoyed to have not yet reached the final goal and he vows to cultivate the virtues of a bodhisattva to one day, be born as a Buddha and lead all beings to Enlightenment. He is the first in the sutra to be predicted to Buddhahood after many lifetimes yet, cultivating the perfections. Many in the assembly are delighted but confused in mind, not fully understanding the teaching. Sariputra asks of the Buddha to explain the reasons (for the former tactful methods of teaching) so they can understand and be at peace. "Through a parable, the wise gain understanding" then we get the Parable of the burning house

When thinking on how to explain how I understand this parable and it's meaning(s), I am at first reminded of the Fire Sermon from the Samyutta Nikaya- The Buddha says "Monks, all is aflame..." The house is to represent the world. The father (Buddha as protector) is safe from the fire but, there are those whom he cares for inside, the children are representing the beings of the world (us). He wants to save them and at first thinks of carrying the children out by force, this is not possible. Spiritual development is not possible by force. The Buddha knows that people must develop spiritually by their own efforts. Second, he calls out to the children, trying to tell them about the danger so they get out safely. But, they are too busy with their "games" and "running hither and tither in play" only "glancing at their father" and further- they do not know what he even means by "fire" or "being lost." Here we see our true situation- we are too interested in the "games people play" in the world to even understand what is meant by the meaning by "life is suffering." We are too busy to notice and only glance at spirituality and wonder if it is truly useful or not. Finally, to save the children, the father must resort to a trick. He knows their natures and offers them wonderful and rare playthings- goat, deer and bullock carts. The children run eagerly outside and are saved, then are rewarded with magnificent bullock carts, more awesome than they ever imagined. Here we have the Buddha's skillful means shown by goat carts (arhat vehicle), deer carts (solitary-buddha vehicle) and bullock carts (bodhisattva vehicle). Some beings naturally desire and strive for Nirvana, some seek to be buddhas for themselves, some are drawn to practice for the sake of all sentient beings. The parable here drives home (our heart) the fact that the Buddha teaches 3 vehicles but in fact only has one vehicle to give and, it is beyond our wildest dreams.

There is indeed alot more to the symbols and images in the parable than what I have pointed out here, I hope this can be a starting point for us to explore together the meanings we derive from this story.

Noah

[rory]

Back from the library; in answer to Indian commentaries:
Nagarjuna Treatise on the Great Perfection of Wisdom Sutra Nagarjuna states the Lotus Sutra is superior due to the principle of equality
Salamati Treatise on Mahayana Buddhism
Vasubandhu Commentary on the Lotus Sutra
all 3 focus on the point of the universal law as the one vehicle testifying to universal equality p. 46
Tamura Yoshiro, The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Cullture eds. Tanabe, University of Hawaii Press

Now as to sokushin jobutsu
"The earliest use of the term sokushin jobutsu in a T'ien T'ai text is found in the Fa-hua wen-chu chi (T 34, no 1718) Chan-jan's subcommentary onf Chih-i's line-by-line commentary on the Lotus Sutra, the fa-hua wen-chu (T 34, no. 1718) Since the term appears in Chan-jan's discussion of the dragon king's daughter's realization of buddhahood, the section of the Lotus which Saicho chose as the basis of his discussion of sokushin jobutsu. Chan-jan's use of the term undoubtedly played a vital role in shaping Saicho's view on the subject." Paul Groner, Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture p. 58

Realization of buddhahood in this very body was revolutionary, at the time of Saicho, Hosso monks figured it would take 3 eons to reach buddhahood. The dynamic principle of equality combined with an emphasis on attainment in this lifetime is the reason why Tendai was so dynamic and influential in Japan.
gassho
Rory

[Indrajala]

Not to mention that these official numbers don't say much of actual religious practice.

In Japan these statistics mostly just mean people who are registered under a certain sect which reports their numbers to either the authorities or research institutes wanting to know how many "adherents" they have.

You could easily be counted as a member of any sect just by making use of the services of a priest once every decade when someone in the family passes away.

[ram peswani]

It was said earlier in this thread (in an attempt to downplay the sutra and feign understanding) that it is "overloaded with metaphors explaining the same ideas again and again." Reducing it down in this way is perhaps the easiest way to miss the points and fully misunderstand the differences between the many stories and parables.

Some of the ideas that flow from the Lotus Sutra have been, on this thread, denied before any exploration has been made

Noah,

What you fail to see is that some people do understand the Lotus Sutra. Investigation and explorations have been made...it's just that some people don't think it's a sutra that possesses the depth of other sutras (or tantras for that matter). Everyone favors certain sutras over others.

My firm opinion

1. Lotus Sutra ...Nothing can exist beyond this Sutra.
2. The sutra has to be read again and again and then hours of meditation are required to digest the meanings.
3. One becomes firm when one experiences " Suniata" "One Vehical" and the "Parable of Phantom city".
4. Only and only Buddha can fully compherend Lotus sutra , all others like us are lucky if we understand only a small part
of this sutra.
5. Experiencing Lotus sutra step by step is a movement towards higher evolution.
6. Even a minor reverence towards Lotus sutra is a sure indication that ultimately you will be enevolped by Lotus Sutra.


ram peswani

[Tatsuo]

Where did you get the idea, that Nichiren Buddhism is one of the smaller traditions in Japan?

What I meant is that it is among the smaller ones among the big traditional churches. I didn't mean it's like some new religion with a few thousand followers.

Here's some statistics (source):

Shingonshu has 12,000 temples and 13.8 millions followers.
Shinshu has about 20,000 temples and 13.3 million followers.
Sotoshu has 15,000 temples and 6.9 million followers.
Tendaishu has 4,200 temples and 6.9 million followers.
Jodoshu has 8,000 temples and 6.5 million followers.
Nichirenshu has 5,200 temples and 3.3 million followers.

More statistics with all the sub-schools: 仏教界データ リンク集

Rory is right, that there are more Buddhist groups in Japan than are usually listed in these statistics. These statistics exclude more recent offshoots of the traditional Buddhist schools. This doesn't make any sense, as many of the so-called new religions do not really differ from traditional Buddhist doctrine. Just because they emerged after the Meiji Period they were classified as "new religions", implying that they were totally different from the other Buddhist schools - new religions - which they are not. They are fairly popular among the highly religious Buddhists in Japan and many of them have a connection with Nichiren.
Apart from that, the statistics you've quoted seem a bit odd. The Shūkyō nenkan from 2008 (Religions Yearbook published by the Agency for Cultural Affairs of Japan) lists for example 1,5 mio. followers for Sotoshū (2004) and a total of 3,2 mio. followers of Zen (2007). And according to the Shūkyō nenkan Nichiren Buddhism has 15,5 mio. followers. So together with Tendaishū, which has also high regards for the Lotus Sutra, more 1/3 of the traditional Buddhists schools consider the Lotus Sutra as their central text. And this without counting in the various Nichiren related "new religions"! So the Lotus Sutra was and still is enormously popular in Japan.

[Astus]

So together with Tendaishū, which has also high regards for the Lotus Sutra, more 1/3 of the traditional Buddhists schools consider the Lotus Sutra as their central text. And this without counting in the various Nichiren related "new religions"! So the Lotus Sutra was and still is enormously popular in Japan.

It is very interesting how these statistics turned out. Well, so it is then.