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New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 5:57 am
by Nicholas Weeks
The Dharmachakra group at the 84000 site now has a 345 page version (in PDF), which they title The Play in Full. This the life of the Prince who became Buddha:

http://read.84000.co/browser/released/U ... 46-001.pdf

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:08 pm
by udawa
Thanks for this Will. :twothumbsup:

I only know Lalitavistara from Gwendolyn Bays' translation from the French (The Voice of the Buddha). What a wonderful text.

As a title, 'The Play in Full' sounds slightly strange to my ear - but a definite improvement on Wiki's 'Extensive Sport Sutra' !

The 84000 website seems to have fallen over just now. Maybe it's the vast queue of people trying to download this new translation.

What an excellent project this is.

D

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:16 pm
by deff
Due to the size of the sutra, it takes about a minute to load in the reading room, so after you click on it just be patient :smile:

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:26 pm
by Nicholas Weeks
Yes, on this Friday morn the site is v e r y s l o w. I have not visited it in months, so do not know why.

They also just put up the Karandavyuha Sutra, all about OM MANI PADME HUM.

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 5:01 pm
by Leo Rivers
Thank you Will. Oh man, I had just bought the 2 Volume Dharma Publishing edition too...

I am looking forward to comparing this to the Jataka-nidana and it will be interesting to compare them. That ought cover the earliest Mahayana renderings of the Sport of the Sura Buddha.

See the chart comparing them here:

http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-bud ... /index.htm

AND

I found this while waiting for the download....
The Earliest RecordedDiscourses of the Buddha(from Lalitavistara, Mahākhandhaka & Mahāvastu)
http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-bud ... /index.htm

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:56 pm
by Grigoris
Thank you for bringing this to our attention Will!

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:52 pm
by Nicholas Weeks
The Karandavyuha Sutra can now be read online, but neither Chrome or Safari gets a response when trying to download the PDF. :shrug:

If anyone does have success, please post here the link to the sutra pdf.

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:02 am
by Konchog1
Will wrote:The Karandavyuha Sutra can now be read online, but neither Chrome or Safari gets a response when trying to download the PDF. :shrug:

If anyone does have success, please post here the link to the sutra pdf.
This Sutra is apparently the first mention of Om Mani Padme Hum. The Sutra also mentions the Cundi mantra. Is this Sutra also the first appearance of the Cundi mantra?

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 12:20 am
by vinodh
udawa wrote:Thanks for this Will. :twothumbsup:
As a title, 'The Play in Full' sounds slightly strange to my ear - but a definite improvement on Wiki's 'Extensive Sport Sutra' !
D
:smile:

Bear in mind that the concept of "Divine Play/Sport" is very much ingrained in the Indian psyche. The word "play/sport" when used in a religious context, it automatically assumes the meaning of "Divine Play/Sport".

V

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 9:19 am
by udawa
vinodh wrote:
udawa wrote:Thanks for this Will. :twothumbsup:
As a title, 'The Play in Full' sounds slightly strange to my ear - but a definite improvement on Wiki's 'Extensive Sport Sutra' !
D
:smile:

Bear in mind that the concept of "Divine Play/Sport" is very much ingrained in the Indian psyche. The word "play/sport" when used in a religious context, it automatically assumes the meaning of "Divine Play/Sport".

V
Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?

D

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 12:36 pm
by vinodh
udawa wrote:
Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?

D
I know. Something always gets lost during translation ! Doesn't it ? :shrug:

In this case, I assume its best left as-is. Or append the word "divine" or any other suitable adjective. Coz.. The sutra tells that whatever the Buddha did was just a
"play", (he wasn't "actually" doing anything ) and it was just a "display" for the less-than-enlightened sentient beings.

There is even a Hindu goddess named "Lalitaa" - When translated would literally become "She who plays", which is kinda weird. (No, She is not the Goddess of sports :tongue: )

V

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:04 pm
by Leo Rivers
It seems that there was a notion the Buddhists adapted that just as the Cosmos was but the sporting mind projection of the Devas (power to control others incarnations?) The Buddha was ALWAYS Cosmic. This is the view of the Lotus Sutra and the Avatamsaka so beloved of Asia. This divorces the Buddha(s) from the rest of humanity and is very typical of Piety where self purification seems to need to involve abasement.

I prefer the later (yet more ancient) view that the Buddha indeed took many incarnations to "get there" as in the Jataka Nidanakatha (The "story of the Buddha in 3 epochs" that is a prelude to the Jataka Tales.) AND there are many Buddhas (Cosmic as to scope, not cosmic as to the exaltation of the Buddha Being).

Between the 1st Century CE and the 3rd Century CE there were many diverse attempts to "add" several of the score of New Thinking ideas that later in retrospect all became aggregated into a definition of a Mahayana. But in these new sutras you will find many different combinations of which new ideas are accepted. Some are "traditional texts" with one or two new ideas added for enhancement. The Jataka Nidanakatha "likes" the Buddha Cosmic as in scope, and the further path of the Ten Perfections to a Greater Path past Arhant to Buddha. Other than that, it's Buddhism.

The first chapter of the Lalitavistara is Mahayana in which the Buddha is Cosmic as in deification and divorcement from humanity.
******
An aside: A Brave New Buddhist?

If feel rather homeless. (An atheist Buddhist I live in a rural town in Oregon and the Born Agains and the Buddhists in Priuses both shun me). 2 years ago I had to jettison myself from the mindset of the sangha I have been a part of for 20 years when it imploded spiritually and organizationally. Then I found I landed 1800 years ago in a zone in NW India in which Buddhism is inventing itself as it goes, liking some "Mahayana new way" thinking, and having an organ transplant rejection of other "Mahayana new way" thinking. That is why the periphery of Gandhara and the Yogacarabhumi as a genre attracts me. Between Sangharaksa and Asangha, (not Vasubandhu so much), people were seizing the means of spiritual production and re-inventing themselves. They and them is like we and now. Leo

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:40 pm
by udawa
Will wrote:The Karandavyuha Sutra can now be read online, but neither Chrome or Safari gets a response when trying to download the PDF. :shrug:

If anyone does have success, please post here the link to the sutra pdf.
Just tried again - you can read the text online ok now, but the pdf download shows up as a broken link.

D

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:45 pm
by kirtu
udawa wrote:
Will wrote:The Karandavyuha Sutra can now be read online, but neither Chrome or Safari gets a response when trying to download the PDF. :shrug:

If anyone does have success, please post here the link to the sutra pdf.
Just tried again - you can read the text online ok now, but the pdf download shows up as a broken link.

D
This happened to me too with the Karandavyuha Sutra.

Kirt

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:54 pm
by udawa
vinodh wrote:
udawa wrote:
Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?

D
I know. Something always gets lost during translation ! Doesn't it ? :shrug:

In this case, I assume its best left as-is. Or append the word "divine" or any other suitable adjective. Coz.. The sutra tells that whatever the Buddha did was just a
"play", (he wasn't "actually" doing anything ) and it was just a "display" for the less-than-enlightened sentient beings.

There is even a Hindu goddess named "Lalitaa" - When translated would literally become "She who plays", which is kinda weird. (No, She is not the Goddess of sports :tongue: )

V
Ok. I see another translation offers ''The unfolding of the play' - so presumably the unfolding of the drama of Buddha's awakening or something like that.

Anyway, I'm always grateful for another translation, if only for comparison. And a slightly awkward but accurate version that is generally more useful than a freer more poetic, rendition.

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 9:01 pm
by kirtu
udawa wrote:'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?
In what way is it scarcely English? The introduction explains the ambiguity in the title. "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" comes to mind (amongst other English titles).

Kirt

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 9:41 pm
by cdpatton
udawa wrote:
vinodh wrote:
udawa wrote:
Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?

D
I know. Something always gets lost during translation ! Doesn't it ? :shrug:

In this case, I assume its best left as-is. Or append the word "divine" or any other suitable adjective. Coz.. The sutra tells that whatever the Buddha did was just a
"play", (he wasn't "actually" doing anything ) and it was just a "display" for the less-than-enlightened sentient beings.

There is even a Hindu goddess named "Lalitaa" - When translated would literally become "She who plays", which is kinda weird. (No, She is not the Goddess of sports :tongue: )

V
Vistara does generally mean to amplify, to give a full detailed account, an extensive literary work, stage direction for a narrator to fill in the details, etc. I think in a title like this, it means a detailed literary work. Translating it as "Story" or "Narration" would seem appropriate. The old translation from Sanskrit done in the 19th century called it a Memoir.

Lalita basically means dropping civil pretexts and indulging in whatever seems amusing. Informal dancing. Horsing around. Being amorous, wanton. Having fun. Following one's desires without the usual restraints. Like children, puppies, kittens. I would translate it as "playing" or "having fun." It is not really formal sports. That's too serious. In the case of the Bodhisattva - there is probably some tongue-in-cheek to this - he plays with the spiritual powers and skillful means. Which maybe pokes fun at both the discipline of asceticism (no lalita allowed) as well as the spiritual vacuity of the secular world (which has plenty of lalita, but no Dharma).

Charlie.

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 4:01 am
by Konchog1
cdpatton wrote: Vistara does generally mean to amplify, to give a full detailed account, an extensive literary work, stage direction for a narrator to fill in the details, etc. I think in a title like this, it means a detailed literary work. Translating it as "Story" or "Narration" would seem appropriate. The old translation from Sanskrit done in the 19th century called it a Memoir.

Lalita basically means dropping civil pretexts and indulging in whatever seems amusing. Informal dancing. Horsing around. Being amorous, wanton. Having fun. Following one's desires without the usual restraints. Like children, puppies, kittens. I would translate it as "playing" or "having fun." It is not really formal sports. That's too serious. In the case of the Bodhisattva - there is probably some tongue-in-cheek to this - he plays with the spiritual powers and skillful means. Which maybe pokes fun at both the discipline of asceticism (no lalita allowed) as well as the spiritual vacuity of the secular world (which has plenty of lalita, but no Dharma).

Charlie.
So, 'A Playful Narration'?

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 7:47 am
by Kunzang
OP: Thanks for the updates.

Yesterday I was able to download Lalitavistara, but couldn't view or download the Karandavyuha.

I just tried again, and the 84000 website doesn't load; firefox browser just shows "connecting..." I tried it also with Internet Explorer and it's the same. :crying:

Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation

Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 7:57 am
by kirtu
Kunzang wrote:OP: Thanks for the updates.

Yesterday I was able to download Lalitavistara, but couldn't view or download the Karandavyuha.

I just tried again, and the 84000 website doesn't load; firefox browser just shows "connecting..." I tried it also with Internet Explorer and it's the same. :crying:
At their end they are experiencing a database connection error. I am shocked that many websites these days are so poorly implemented. Nothing like this would have been possible in the few websites I created (you could have database connection errors but the user still saw the site and wasn't able to proceed but to just fail and not display anything or worse an overt error message is unacceptable).

Kirt