Sex and the Lama

[MalaBeads]

Oh my god! Women and men are having sex with each other instead of members of the same sex or their own hands!

LOL! Well, they were certainly having it in the middle of the night last night in the hotel room next door to me!

[Sheila]

China cannot blame white men for what it did to Tibet.

[Virgo]

Well, I have ideas of what might make women be more likely to participate in this kind of thing, that are based on similar observations to the post by "Undefineable" above. Bottom line, though, is that long time female practitioners would need to be actively involved in the envisioning of the entire project from the base, and their input, different priorities, and mode of expression would need to be respected by the men who wanted to partner on the project. How the resultant site would look under those circumstances would probably be very different. The decision-making process of the moderator's group would be different, and the governance might even be different.

Well it sounds like you've got a lot of interesting ideas. I had not thought of having a site with things set up or run much differently before (perhaps because I am male?). I see you spend a good bit of time here and that you also have a very nice blog going, so it looks like you spend some time online. Why not consider making such a site? I would certainly visit it and participate.

Kevin

[Nighthawk]

China cannot blame white men for what it did to Tibet.

I think that quote is referring to the genocide and exploitation committed by European colonists around the world. Maybe that's what he means by "desolation and ruin" by the white man.

[Virgo]

China cannot blame white men for what it did to Tibet.

I think that quote is referring to the genocide and exploitation committed by European colonists around the world. Maybe that's what he means by "desolation and ruin" by the white man.

"Tibet knows all too well..." shows that the desolution and ruin spoken of was brought to Tibet by White men. In reality, well let's just say reality is far removed from that statement. Understand now?

Kevin

[Nighthawk]

China cannot blame white men for what it did to Tibet.

I think that quote is referring to the genocide and exploitation committed by European colonists around the world. Maybe that's what he means by "desolation and ruin" by the white man.

"Tibet knows all too well..." shows that the desolution and ruin spoken of was brought to Tibet by White men. In reality, well let's just say reality is far removed from that statement. Understand now?

Kevin

That may be true or not for Tibet (I wouldn't be surprised if it was in some way), but for the Americas, Africa, India etc. it's a totally different story. All you will read about is mass slaughter and cultural genocide committed by greedy European colonists.

[Virgo]

That may be true or not for Tibet (I wouldn't be surprised if it was in some way), but for the Americas, Africa, India etc. it's a totally different story. All you will read about is mass slaughter and cultural genocide committed by greedy European colonists.

I've read a lot more than that. Man has generally acted the same way all accross the world. It has nothing to do with skin tone. Also, i personally take offence to statements that try to brand whole races and negative and so forth. Furthermore, be careful saying "white" as a general rule, instead be more specific of what exact nationalities you are talking about and list specific cases, because I am white and I never did that to anyone. My ancestors are Irish and they never did that to anyoneand so on. So I would prefer if you did not paint me and other "white" people with such a broad brush, thank you very much. If you really look at human history, you will see that man has always acted that way. Try to see past the text books your liberal teachers gave you.

Kevin

[Sheila]

China cannot blame white men for what it did to Tibet.

I think that quote is referring to the genocide and exploitation committed by European colonists around the world. Maybe that's what he means by "desolation and ruin" by the white man.

Except that it's completely ingenuine when used in the context of the people who actually brought genocide and exploitation to Tibet, and are not European.

The additional irony is that people from every possible race, creed, color, and ethnicity--including Chinese--colonized the new world and drove the Native Americans to near extinction. But definitely, those who organized purposeful extinction bear an incredibly heavy karma--though those carrying out the extinction were, again, from many ethnic groups.

The descendants of those who slaughtered Native Americans 500 years ago cannot change the past; the descendants of Japanese who slaughtered Chinese in WWII cannot change the past, and the descendants of Mao's armies who slaughtered Tibetans cannot change the past. We can all change the future, though. No crime, or genocide, justifies another.

[Yangtso]

Problem is that Westerners only know bits and pieces of the story
and have literally nada that is no cultural context.

Start by reading Mandarva's life story.
ALL OF GURU RINPOCHES CONSORTS WERE EMANATIONS OF HER PANDARA INCLUDING YESHE TSHYOGAL.
Since Trisong Detsung was his emenation it is safe to assume that so was Asura Sale.

It took me about 6 years to unravel what sister means in Tantra (in regard to Milarepa
his consort and the sisters) it is not straight up what you think it is.
So to think its an orgy... wrong.

That Milarepa story just brings to mind Krishna and the Gopi girls
who were all married btw. And he left them with illusory emanations and desire
and went to his princess in the city in the palace .

And that 12 and 16 year old stuff is not referring to age per say.
Even the 4 mudra terms are coded... and doesn't just about everyone who takes a HYT
practice get a wisdom mudra or become one lol. Not the same as the four.
Your talking about the practice level of guru rinpoche something that happens what
every thousand or so years, every blue moon? We are all blind men and women
describing bits of an elephant. And our own personal bad habits and propensities
determine whether we have the arse, the ear or the snout.

So reflect on a bit of Sutra?

3rd Bodhisattva Vow

As a disciple of the Buddha, I must not engage in licentious acts or encourage others to do so. I must not have sexual relations with any persons, be they human, animal, divine, or spiritual, nor create the causes, conditions, methods, or karma for such misconduct. Indeed, I must not engage in improper sexual conduct with anyone.

As the Buddha’s disciple, I must have a mind of filial piety, rescuing all sentient beings and instructing them in the Dharma of purity and chastity. If instead, I lack compassion and encourage others to engage in sexual relations promiscuously, including with animals and even their mothers, daughters, sisters, or other close relatives, I commit a major offense.

—Brahma Net Sutra, Bodhisattva Vows

And pretty much unless your dharma eye is open how can you tell who is who?
Maybe in your promiscuity you are having sex with your mother or sister from a past life?
Or encouraging others to do so?

[Yangtso]

It is not against law or lay precept to have sex with a student. Lying about the nature of the relationship, however, is deceitful and harmful. If the woman was not cheated by tales of spiritual benefits or promise of love, then there is simply the case of either casual sex or an emotionally balanced relationship.

Actually It could put some of the board members at a center into a legal issue. Where they could be liable to lose all their personal assets. Without spilling the details these situations are usually unstable and unhealthy and in the one case I saw put a center at risk for serious and deserved legal issues due to the lama not realizing the Legal American context his behavior left wide open, when the girl lost it.

[Yangtso]

What's the problem with ordinary sex between two consenting adults?

The nature of the relationship is unequal, its about power and therefore can never be truly consensual any more than it would be between a student and a college professor.

So teachers should remain alone for their entire lives?

They should marry or remain monks and practice correct dharma.

[Nighthawk]

That may be true or not for Tibet (I wouldn't be surprised if it was in some way), but for the Americas, Africa, India etc. it's a totally different story. All you will read about is mass slaughter and cultural genocide committed by greedy European colonists.

I've read a lot more than that. Man has generally acted the same way all accross the world. It has nothing to do with skin tone. Also, i personally take offence to statements that try to brand whole races and negative and so forth. Furthermore, be careful saying "white" as a general rule, instead be more specific of what exact nationalities you are talking about and list specific cases, because I am white and I never did that to anyone. My ancestors are Irish and they never did that to anyoneand so on. So don't paint me with such a broad brush, thank you very much.

Kevin

Personally I don't think has to do with skin tone either which is why I used the word "Europeans" instead mainly the British, French, and Spanish. I'm well aware that the Irish were oppressed for hundreds of years.

[Lhug-Pa]

The first quote in his sig is definitely not factually wrong. It may be hard to digest but based on a lot of history it's very factual.

True indeed.

In response to MalaBeads:

Haha. That's good. Women and men should have sex with each other a lot more. It would relieve a lot of tension in this world. Not everyone can stay strictly celibate and maintain chastity with daily constant Yoga, Meditation, and Pranayama practice alone.

Yangtso, it's said that everyone has been our mother in some life. So what then, no one should ever sex at all? I'm not saying that all practitioners should get promiscuous, but not everyone is a dedicated practitioner.

Virgo, in looking at the second quote in my sig:

"The religion of Buddha, of India, is well known to have been very ancient. In the most ancient temples scattered throughout Asia, where his worship is yet continued, he is found black as jet, with the flat face, thick lips, and curly hair of the Negro."

"Stonehenge...temple of the black, curly-headed Buddha." - Master Mason Godfrey Higgins

The ancestors of the contemporary Irish could very well have driven out melanated people who were already in Ireland from Ireland. A Nation of Islam/Nation of Gods and Earths member who studied the Buddha Dharma did a lot of research on this, using Godfrey Higgins' writings and other old Masonic writings for some of his references. The Masons have always been sitting on a wealth of information and knowledge that's not readily accessible to ordinary conventional profane/vulgar scholars.


Anyway, the said quote by Manly P. Hall was actually written in the 1930's I believe, decades before Communist China invaded Tibet.

Anyhow, Chinese secularist Communism is mainly influenced by a Caucasian (that is, a Zionist known as Karl Marx, see: Moses Mordecai Marx Levy).

The said Manly P. Hall quote works for contemporary times though, seeing that a lot of corny white people are over-running Buddhism and trying to make it into some sort of silly politically correct secularist modernism.

[Virgo]

Personally I don't think has to do with skin tone either which is why I used the word "Europeans" instead mainly the British, French, and Spanish. I'm well aware that the Irish were oppressed for hundreds of years.

Don't forget the warlords all across the world, in every sector of it, that killed other tribes, factions and so forth, and took their lands and so on, going back forever. The only difference is they didn't have the technology, in many cases, to have huge navys.

Kevin

[Virgo]

Virgo, in looking at the second quote in my sig, the Irish ancestor could get well have driven out melanated people who were already in Ireland from Ireland. A Nation of Islam/Nation of Gods and Earths member who studied the Buddha Dharma did a lot of research on this, using Godfrey Higgins' writings as one of his references.

Real 5%er's are not racist. For example, look at what this guy says about caucasions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-m8cCyRd98

Anyhow, secularist Communism is mainly influenced by a Caucasian (that is, a Zionist known as Karl Marx, see: Moses Mordecai Marx Levy)

What's your point? Millions of people died and suffered otherwise under communist regimes. Because their philosophy is based on a white guys book (in which he does not recommend killing) all the deaths that happened are the fault of whites?

Kevin

[Yangtso]

It is not skillful in this day and age to say anything negative about homosexual.
It is on the edge of hate speech.
So the teaching has become inappropriate when in deters people
from practicing dharma.

Lhug-pa,

It is getting pretty boring reading your posts on sexuality (homosexuality, masturbation, etc.)

To look back at older threads:

JinpaRangdrol:
H.E. Garchen Rinpoche and Thrangu Rinpoche are two prominent gurus who support homosexual pairings in traditional Yab Yum practice, as well.

to which Malcolm replied:

So did Dujdom R.

and this was also linked, to illustrate the fact that many different lamas are very fine with homosexuality: http://khandro.net/dailylife_homosexuality.htm

also:

JinpaRangdrol:
I think it's interesting that a Dzogchenpa is this adamant about condemning homosexuality on an internet forum. I'd be interested to hear ChNNR's opinion on the matter...

to which Malcolm replied:

Lhugpa is a noob (sorry, but its true). I would not call him a Dzogchenpa just yet.

He is working it out. He has a lot of conceptual baggage from non-Buddhists he stills find authoratative.

He will realize eventually that all this obsession with fluids and gender is a complete waste of time.

Then, faced with various quotes from different lamas who have nothing against homosexuality, or gay people having sex, you replied the following:

Even if the said Lamas did say what they're quoted as saying, it could imply various things; and is hardly an actual recommendation for people to have "homosexual pairings in traditional Yab Yum practice"[sic].

For example the fact that Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche is said to have been somewhat surprised by the question posed to him, shows that he was only being nice.

Regarding Dudjom Rinpoche, most likely a similar scenario (i.e. him being nice getting taken by others as a full-on "go ahead", even though that was not what was necessarily implied).

Also, about "obsession with fluids and gender", try telling that to H.H. the Dalai Lama, who is, first and foremost, a Dzogchenpa.

And to this, Malcolm had the following to say:

I would be happy to discuss this with HHDL anytime. I have ample proof in the form of texts and so on that his presentation is not properly understood by others.

Anyway Lhugpa, you are not even remotely an expert on this subject. You have received what, a couple of direct introductions, at best from ChNN? Have you ever received a full on major empowerment such as Hevajra, Kalacakra, Guhyagarbha, etc? If you have not, then I would suggest that you are not qualified to have an opinion on this topic, let alone be discussing it.

You are not speaking from the perspective of a practitioner. You have not engaged in creation stage practice, so how can you pretend to have any insight at all into completion stage practices? At least, at the very least, I spent three years in solitary retreat doing these practices.

You are not speaking from the perspective of a translator, nor a scholar. You are speaking from the perspective of an enthusiastic layperson with very inadequate knowledge of the subject.

And then instead of humbly admitting that you in fact do lack knowledge on the topic, you just replied the following:

Well I think that H.H. the Dalai Lama would "be nice" too, in order to be more 'diplomatic' than I am about these issue.

Nevertheless, I'll bet anything that he would still say that non-heterosexual relations are harmful for Dzogchen practice, and that there's no scriptural support that would suggest otherwise.

Which is just stupid.

You should drop this nonsense of yours. It's not very helpful.

It is also very possible that if someone who has a fragile connection to the Dharma reads this, they are put off by your biggotry, and that my friend, is very serious.

When teachers and Tibetan doctors clearly show how you are wrong, and misinformed (on this topic), it would be very advisable for you to be more humble, and reconsider the attitude you have, and the things you say.

[Malcolm]

What HH Dalai Lama and Berzin are quoted as saying is factually incorrect. Vasubandhu says nothing about homosexuality per se.

Well I actually meant to refer to the behavior itself, and not necessarily the 'orientation' alone.

Although, I'm quite sure that H.H. the Dalai Lama never implied that masturbation is not sexual misconduct for non-monks.


Also, from Berzin-Archives:

Since both Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism base their practice of ethical self-discipline on Vasubandhu's texts, their lineages still include homosexuality in their lists of inappropriate sexual behavior.

And:

It's part of what we Buddhists call 'bad sexual conduct.' Sexual organs were created for reproduction between the male element and the female element and everything that deviates from that is not acceptable from a Buddhist point of view. Between a man and man, a woman and another woman, in the mouth, the anus, or even using a hand.

"Reproduction" here can also refer to the Spiritual Reproduction or Regeneration that results from Karmamudra practice, not only physically making children; otherwise H.H. the Dalai Lama would not teach about Karmamudra.

[Malcolm]

"The religion of Buddha, of India, is well known to have been very ancient. In the most ancient temples scattered throughout Asia, where his worship is yet continued, he is found black as jet, with the flat face, thick lips, and curly hair of the Negro."

"Stonehenge...temple of the black, curly-headed Buddha." - Master Mason Godfrey Higgins

This citation is obvious nonsense, and racist to boot.

The Masons don't know shit about Buddhadharma, whatever other "mysteries" they may claim to know.

[username]

Dalai Lama has many obligations as a national leader in exile with enemies & responsible for many monasteries but has blessed gays & lesbians & given teachings to them without discrimination. Ultimately the partner's gender is completely irrelevant. Also in many parts of Tibet some women did & still have multiple husbands/partners & the kids' fathers could be any of the husbands. Different culture, not like western Abrahamic/Victorian ones responsible for many unprecedented global events in the last two centuries as major powers to this day. Some self appointed westerners, many of whom are prejudiced against Tibetans, abuse their positions with multiple female students in a lifetime as do some worldly Tibetan lamas. However genuine realized lineage masters AND mistresses in Tibet sometimes had multiple consorts. When sending Yeshe Tsogyal on her very eventful journey to Nepal to find her other main consort, apart from himself & future minor ones, Padmasambhava told her the dark Indian youth Atsara Sale is an emanation of Hayagriva.

[Lhug-Pa]

"Vasubandhu says nothing about homosexuality per se"

"Per sè" (?)

"This citation is obvious nonsense, and racist to boot."

How is the citation "obvious nonsense" and "racist"? LOL

Also, perhaps the Buddha's that Godfrey Higgins is referring to are pre-Shakyamuni Merotic Dravidian Buddhas (Nilotic Africans and Dravidians have more narrow features and straighter hair). Gautama Shakyamuni was not the first Buddha, as you well know.