Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

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Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

ShineeSeoul wrote:How is that possible?
It's possible.
you mean by visualisation?
Not necessarily.
even visualising sex is deviant too...I don't understand what sex has to do with buddhist practice
"Sex" does not have to do with buddhist practice per se (from a Gelug perspective). The symbolism of the enlightened mind being both wisdom (enlightened knowing) and method (enlightened doing) being two sides of the same coin is represented by female (wisdom) and male (method) sitting in union. Thus two deities sitting in union are describing one thing, the enlightened mind. Most practitioners merely visualize it. For a very advanced practitioner it can be appropriate to have a physical consort. However that level of realization and renunciation to do the practice legitimately is extremely rare. So rare in fact that it really is not an issue (for the Gelugpas). If it ends up being sexual it is not consort practice. The fact that the deities are sitting on a lotus represents that what they are doing is beyond all that.
any way, dalai lama office has denied this thing is practiced..I doubt at what extent his statement is true though
Could you source that? I know HHDL has said he has not personally practiced it. I have no idea what his office has said though. Historically it has been recognized as part of Vajrayana since Vajrayana has existed. However there is a wide array of how much importance and access there is to it among various groups.

I found this attributed to HHDL:
According to our tradition, we are monastics and are celibate, and we practice the Tantrayana simultaneously. But the way of practice is through visualization. For example, we visualize the consort, but we never touch. We never implement this in actual practice. Unless we have reached a stage where we have completely developed the power to control all our energy and have gained the correct understanding of sunya (emptiness, reality), unless we truly possess all the faculties through which those negative emotions can be transformed into positive energy, we never implement practice with an actual consort. Although we practice all the higher practices, as far as implementation is concerned, we follow Vinaya. We never follow according to Tantrayana. We can’t drink blood!! (everyone laughs). In terms of actual practice, we have to follow the stricter discipline of Vinaya. In ancient India, one of the reasons for the degeneration of the Buddhadharma was the wrong implementation of certain tantric explanations.
(underlining mine)
You can see how touchy the subject is by his response. He started to explain the scenario where it was permissible and then thought better of it.

Also attributed to HHDL:
Nowadays, unfortunately, we have a new vocabulary -- a monk with a wife. This is wrong. A monk is celibate. Those who dress like a monk, with a wife, they are not monks. Of course, it's the individual's right. You can always give up a monk's vows, and then change your dress."
That was in response to a certain high profile individual totally abusing and misrepresenting the tradition.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul »

smcj wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote:How is that possible?
It's possible.
you mean by visualisation?
Not necessarily.
even visualising sex is deviant too...I don't understand what sex has to do with buddhist practice
"Sex" does not have to do with buddhist practice per se (from a Gelug perspective). The symbolism of the enlightened mind being both wisdom (enlightened knowing) and method (enlightened doing) being in union is represented by female (wisdom) and male (method) being in union. Thus two deities sitting in union are describing one thing, the enlightened mind. Most practitioners merely visualize it. For a very advanced practitioner it can be appropriate to have a physical consort. However that level of realization and renunciation to do the practice legitimately is extremely rare. If it ends up being sexual it is not consort practice. The fact that the deities are sitting on a lotus represents that what they are doing is beyond all that.
any way, dalai lama office has denied this thing is practiced..I doubt at what extent his statement is true though
Could you source that? I know HHDL has said he has not personally practiced it. I have no idea what his office has said though. Historically it has been recognized as part of Vajrayana since Vajrayana has existed. However there is a wide array of how much importance and access there is to it among various groups.

I found this attributed to HHDL:
According to our tradition, we are monastics and are celibate, and we practice the Tantrayana simultaneously. But the way of practice is through visualization. For example, we visualize the consort, but we never touch. We never implement this in actual practice. Unless we have reached a stage where we have completely developed the power to control all our energy and have gained the correct understanding of sunya (emptiness, reality), unless we truly possess all the faculties through which those negative emotions can be transformed into positive energy, we never implement practice with an actual consort. Although we practice all the higher practices, as far as implementation is concerned, we follow Vinaya. We never follow according to Tantrayana. We can’t drink blood!! (everyone laughs). In terms of actual practice, we have to follow the stricter discipline of Vinaya. In ancient India, one of the reasons for the degeneration of the Buddhadharma was the wrong implementation of certain tantric explanations.
(underlining mine)
You can see how touchy the subject is by his response. He started to explain the scenario where it was permissible and then thought better of it.

Also attributed to HHDL:
Nowadays, unfortunately, we have a new vocabulary -- a monk with a wife. This is wrong. A monk is celibate. Those who dress like a monk, with a wife, they are not monks. Of course, it's the individual's right. You can always give up a monk's vows, and then change your dress."
That was in response to a certain high profile individual totally abusing and misrepresenting the tradition.

so what I understand from your statement that the official stand by Tibetan Buddhsim as will as HHDL is that the highest qualified pracitioner can have sex with consort?

I have hear this thing, and I did hear some other tibetan buddhist follower did deny this thing exist completly

“The cultivation methods of Tibetan Buddhism do not put an emphasis on the Couple-Practice Tantra; in particular, monks who have received the precepts are strictly prohibited from practicing it.” from HHDL office in Taiwan

http://www.enlighten.org.tw/trueheart_en/4

there is a lots of opinion regarding this thing in tibetan buddhism, some said its practiced secretly and rarely, some said its wide spread(though I don't think so)...I still think that its depend on the tradition and teacher..I think some tradition doesn't have this thing at all..such as FPMT, they are vegetarian, and they don't involve in eating meat, or may be using it in ritual etc...other tradition could use blood and drink it! guess as what I have heard
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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul »

smcj wrote:Sex" does not have to do with buddhist practice per se (from a Gelug perspective). The symbolism of the enlightened mind being both wisdom (enlightened knowing) and method (enlightened doing) being two sides of the same coin is represented by female (wisdom) and male (method) sitting in union. Thus two deities sitting in union are describing one thing, the enlightened mind. Most practitioners merely visualize it. For a very advanced practitioner it can be appropriate to have a physical consort. However that level of realization and renunciation to do the practice legitimately is extremely rare. So rare in fact that it really is not an issue (for the Gelugpas). If it ends up being sexual it is not consort practice. The fact that the deities are sitting on a lotus represents that what they are doing is beyond all that.

all of these sex images and whatever sex thing that presented in tibetan buddhism for indicating on other things that has nothing to do with sex as your statement above, it is still not Buddhist...these ideas taken from Hinduism and they use the same thing, but different terms
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BrianG
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by BrianG »

ShineeSeoul wrote:
smcj wrote:
it is possible for a monk to do consort practice without breaking his vow of celibacy.
How is that possible? you mean by visualisation?

even visualising sex is deviant too...I don't understand what sex has to do with buddhist practice

any way, dalai lama office has denied this thing is practiced..I doubt at what extent his statement is true though
Lay people can do consort practice, monks can't. Although I believe in Gelug a monk can if they can perform a miracle, which has only happened twice.
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BrianG
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by BrianG »

ShineeSeoul wrote: all of these sex images and whatever sex thing that presented in tibetan buddhism for indicating on other things that has nothing to do with sex as your statement above, it is still not Buddhist...these ideas taken from Hinduism and they use the same thing, but different terms
It's Buddhist. Consort practice was introduced by Mahasiddhas(Buddhist Yogis), who received the teaching from the Buddha.
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Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

“The cultivation methods of Tibetan Buddhism do not put an emphasis on the Couple-Practice Tantra; in particular, monks who have received the precepts are strictly prohibited from practicing it.” from HHDL office in Taiwan
Effectively, yes. The Gelug perspective is that it's authentically happened about as many times as man has walked on the moon. The Nyingmapas have a much more liberal take on it, but they are not monks. In fact, the Nyingmapas perceived abuse of that practice was one of the reasons Tsongkhapa initiated the reforms that became the Gelugpas.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul »

BrianG wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote: all of these sex images and whatever sex thing that presented in tibetan buddhism for indicating on other things that has nothing to do with sex as your statement above, it is still not Buddhist...these ideas taken from Hinduism and they use the same thing, but different terms
It's Buddhist. Consort practice was introduced by Mahasiddhas(Buddhist Yogis), who received the teaching from the Buddha.
Padmasambava has nothing to do with Buddha...he was a hindu yogi and mahasiddha, which is similiar to shiva and shakti tantric concept..just change the name and the terms to buddhist, such as bodhisatava..bodhi..etc..Lord Buddha never make or teach anything in secret..nor sexual...these beliefes that so called desire can be switched to enlightment is so absured, and have nothing to do with original buddha teaching that is found in Agamas, or Nikayas
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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul »

smcj wrote:
“The cultivation methods of Tibetan Buddhism do not put an emphasis on the Couple-Practice Tantra; in particular, monks who have received the precepts are strictly prohibited from practicing it.” from HHDL office in Taiwan
Effectively, yes. The Gelug perspective is that it's authentically happened about as many times as man has walked on the moon. The Nyingmapas have a much more liberal take on it, but they are not monks. In fact, the Nyingmapas perceived abuse of that practice was one of the reasons Tsongkhapa initiated the reforms that became the Gelugpas.
Thanks for this information...its intesresting...there is clear conflict between tantric teaching, which believe in sexual energy as positive thing for enlightment, and the Buddhist teaching which teach that sex is a desire that block us from enlightment...thats why this has happened..its my opinion any way, I know that follower of Vajrayana would disagree
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by theanarchist »

ShineeSeoul wrote:
Padmasambava has nothing to do with Buddha...he was a hindu yogi and mahasiddha, which is similiar to shiva and shakti tantric concept.

Firstly, talking in the past tense does not apply in this case, and secondly, no, he isn't.
Last edited by theanarchist on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by theanarchist »

ShineeSeoul wrote:.there is clear conflict between tantric teaching, which believe in sexual energy as positive thing for enlightment,


This it not the statement of tantric buddhism. It claims that people with very clearly defined qualifications, that are very high, sexual energy can be used for practice. For the vast majority of practitioners this is not the case and they have to handle their sexual urges the conventional way by living their sexuality either as a normal lay person or monastic.

What tantic buddhism teaches is, that you shouldn't be afraid of your emotions.
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BrianG
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by BrianG »

ShineeSeoul wrote:
BrianG wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote: all of these sex images and whatever sex thing that presented in tibetan buddhism for indicating on other things that has nothing to do with sex as your statement above, it is still not Buddhist...these ideas taken from Hinduism and they use the same thing, but different terms
It's Buddhist. Consort practice was introduced by Mahasiddhas(Buddhist Yogis), who received the teaching from the Buddha.
Padmasambava has nothing to do with Buddha...he was a hindu yogi and mahasiddha, which is similiar to shiva and shakti tantric concept..just change the name and the terms to buddhist, such as bodhisatava..bodhi..etc..Lord Buddha never make or teach anything in secret..nor sexual...these beliefes that so called desire can be switched to enlightment is so absured, and have nothing to do with original buddha teaching that is found in Agamas, or Nikayas
I said the Buddha, not Padmasambava. And Padmasambava wasn't a Hindu. What you believe and practice is up to you. However, if you are going to be saying this and that thing isn't Buddhist because it isn't in the Nikayas, I think you would be happier at Dhammawheel.
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Dan74
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Dan74 »

ShineeSeoul wrote:
BrianG wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote: all of these sex images and whatever sex thing that presented in tibetan buddhism for indicating on other things that has nothing to do with sex as your statement above, it is still not Buddhist...these ideas taken from Hinduism and they use the same thing, but different terms
It's Buddhist. Consort practice was introduced by Mahasiddhas(Buddhist Yogis), who received the teaching from the Buddha.
Padmasambava has nothing to do with Buddha...he was a hindu yogi and mahasiddha, which is similiar to shiva and shakti tantric concept..just change the name and the terms to buddhist, such as bodhisatava..bodhi..etc..Lord Buddha never make or teach anything in secret..nor sexual...these beliefes that so called desire can be switched to enlightment is so absured, and have nothing to do with original buddha teaching that is found in Agamas, or Nikayas
ShineeSeoul, it sounds like you don't know or understand what Tantra is about. This is fine, I am not a Vajrayana practitioner either, but I would caution you against slandering a Buddhist school based on your lack of knowledge and understanding. If you are curious, ask a polite question in the Tibetan part of the forum. Otherwise refrain from such statements if you want to participate here. This forum if for discussion of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism and respect for these traditions is expected of all participants.

_/|\_
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Zhen Li
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Zhen Li »

One problem here is that it is being taken for granted that Tantras which refer to sexual union, are also referring to a practice, and not signifying something further. It may be considered misleading for this to be promoted.

I personally don't blame ShineeSeoul for responding in the way he did, if what is being promoted is true, one might be. So I would invite all to try not to be provocative.

At the same time, ShineeSeoul, I would suggest taking what folks on the internet say with a grain of salt, rather than taking it as the basis for forming extreme views of revulsion or rejection.
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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul »

I have just stating my opinion regarding the topic which is some group protesting Tibetan Buddhism...not meant to be provocative

I wasn't aware also until now that the consort practice has been admitted to be exist...so just stating my opinion...thats it
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm »

ShineeSeoul wrote:I have just stating my opinion regarding the topic which is some group protesting Tibetan Buddhism...not meant to be provocative

I wasn't aware also until now that the consort practice has been admitted to be exist...so just stating my opinion...thats it
Of course, there is eating yoga, sleeping yoga, yogas for defecating and urinating too, so naturally there is a sexual yoga as well. If you are monk, you do not practice the last one.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

It wouldn't break my heart if it was formally and officially discontinued. If NASA can give up manned missions to the moon as not being worth the effort, then Dharma can give up that practice as not being worth the trouble.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote:It wouldn't break my heart if it was formally and officially discontinued..
It never will be, and it should not be.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:It wouldn't break my heart if it was formally and officially discontinued..
It never will be, and it should not be.
As is with the issue of tulkus, the question is one of cost/benefit.

I've got no dog in this fight. WAY above my pay grade. I'm just pointing out that it has a huge downside to it, as is evidenced by this thread. Plus I'm never going to do that practice. I'll be lucky to get the basics down.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:It wouldn't break my heart if it was formally and officially discontinued..
It never will be, and it should not be.
As is with the issue of tulkus, the question is one of cost/benefit.

I've got no dog in this fight. WAY above my pay grade. I'm just pointing out that it has a huge downside to it, as is evidenced in this thread. Plus I'm never going to do that practice.
There is no downside. There is however the fact that some people do not understand what we are doing. Do we get rid of wrathful rituals merely because someone freaks out through their misconception that Buddhadharma is purely pacifist? Of course not. It is the same with the whole range of Vajrayāna practice.

Image
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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul »

Malcolm wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote:I have just stating my opinion regarding the topic which is some group protesting Tibetan Buddhism...not meant to be provocative

I wasn't aware also until now that the consort practice has been admitted to be exist...so just stating my opinion...thats it
Of course, there is eating yoga, sleeping yoga, yogas for defecating and urinating too, so naturally there is a sexual yoga as well. If you are monk, you do not practice the last one.
what i have learn here from member response, is that, even vajrayana monk can still have sex with consort if they are high practitioner? or so called qualified enough?
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