Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

[5heaps]

do you seriously believe that the 100s of people who have studied at DM, many of whom have many other dharma teachers outside of DM, are all following a cult? do you really believe you are in a position to assert that?

I have students that study Buddhist sati meditation with me and simultaneously are members of the Osho cult. What is so difficult to understand about that?

its difficult to understand, because when someone is sufficiently trained they are be able to discern the difference between authentic buddhism and a buddhist-inspired cult

[gregkavarnos]

its difficult to understand, because when someone is sufficiently trained they are be able to discern the difference between authentic buddhism and a buddhist-inspired cult

Really? Then why can you not recognise that DM is a cult? You see what I mean?

[Dechen Norbu]

Anyone sane, good willed or not seriously deluded, would have already understood that Michael Roach strayed far away from the Buddhist path, what he's been up to and how that contributed to this sad episode where a person died, perhaps as a consequence of the relation maintained with a Roach's former victim (not only a lover, as what they had presented disturbing pathological signs), relation very much influenced by their twisted views about Dharma. Twisted for an outsider, because that's what they believe as they were so taught by their leader, the now Armani suited, club hitter Michael Roach.

At this point and after all that has become public regarding MR and DM, I honestly think that people who refuse to see this may be sick, don't know the facts or then have something at stake. Really. These are the only reasons I can find for someone refusing to acknowledge what has become of Michael Roach. This is worrying.

This thread will not degenerate to a debate about Michael Roach's legitimacy as a Buddhist teacher, because he has none for a long time now. This is a fact, not an interpretation. The moment the Dalai Lama forbade him from teaching at Dharamsala, this fact was made crystal clear to the public.

[5heaps]

its difficult to understand, because when someone is sufficiently trained they are be able to discern the difference between authentic buddhism and a buddhist-inspired cult

Really? Then why can you not recognise that DM is a cult? You see what I mean?

it must mean im not sufficiently trained, right?
but then if i am, Dechen Norbu will just say i having something at stake.



i think what it was is, when Namdrol-la somehow came to the conclusion that GMR is a charlatan, all the lightweights fell into line. out of curiosities sake are you still holding to that these days Namdrol?

[Mr. G]

i think what it was is, when Namdrol-la somehow came to the conclusion that GMR is a charlatan, all the lightweights fell into line. out of curiosities sake are you still holding to that these days Namdrol?

It's more like when he was censured by H.H. Dalai Lama as well as criticized by Prof. Robert Thurman and others.

But their practice — which even they admit is radical by the standards of the religious community whose ideas they aim to further — has sent shock waves through the Tibetan Buddhist community as far as the Dalai Lama himself, whose office indicated its disapproval of the living arrangement by rebuffing Mr. Roach’s attempt to teach at Dharamsala, India, in 2006. (In a letter, the office said his “unconventional behavior does not accord with His Holiness’s teachings and practices.”)

“There is a tremendous amount of opprobrium by the Tibetan monks; they think they have gone wacky,” said Robert Thurman, a professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism at Columbia University.

Professor Thurman, a former monk himself, describes himself as a friend and admirer of Mr. Roach, and said that after the geshe made his relationship with Ms. McNally public in 2003, he begged him to renounce his monastic vows and to stop wearing the robes that mark him as a member of a monastic order. Mr. Roach declined, and the two have not spoken since.

Making Their Own Limits in a Spiritual Partnership

You're just incredibly misinformed 5heaps.

[5heaps]

maybe you are misinformed? Prof.Thurman and GMR speak on the phone frequently enough. i know, because there is a certain translator living with him in NY who has told me so.
yes, i know about that email from the Office. as for His Holiness' position on consorts + monks, that was already covered in another thread here, and it is not beyond the realm of possibility.

these aren't points of debate, since no debates were had. these are corrections of wrong information.

[Dechen Norbu]

i think what it was is, when Namdrol-la somehow came to the conclusion that GMR is a charlatan, all the lightweights fell into line. out of curiosities sake are you still holding to that these days Namdrol?

People defending MR are either misinformed, ill willed, sick or have something in stake. Those are the only justifications plausible for someone defending him. I don't know what's your case.
It's likely that I read Namdrol on this issue, and generally I'm prone to agree with his opinions, just because they are well founded, although it is public we had disagreements too about a few things. This is natural.

It doesn't surprise me that your defense passes through outright insult and insinuations about the character of those who criticize MR. After all you are defending that person.
I did, however, warned you about this type of conduct. You disregarded such warning and, although in a milder form, come back with the same sort of personal attacks to those who correctly access a potentially harmful situation within a group of people due to the bad influence of MR.
As such, disciplinary action will be taken.

[Dechen Norbu]

maybe you are misinformed? Prof.Thurman and GMR speak on the phone frequently enough. i know, because there is a certain translator living with him in NY who has told me so.
yes, i know about that email from the Office. as for His Holiness' position on consorts + monks, that was already covered in another thread here, and it is not beyond the realm of possibility.

these aren't points of debate, since no debates were had. these are corrections of wrong information.

Hearsay. I don't know if your source is reliable.
What is public and has not been refuted, that Thurman and MR don't speak, is a different story.
If you believe MR and his ex consort where practicing Dharma by means of their relation, instead of plunging deep in a delusion, that's your problem.
A sick fantasy was going on, that's what it is.
The results of that relation in Christie McNally's psyche are pretty obvious now. I just wonder how many more minds did he mess with.

[gregkavarnos]

Really? Then why can you not recognise that DM is a cult? You see what I mean?

it must mean im not sufficiently trained, right?...

You set the tone, i just answered. Whether you are insufficiently trained or not is your issue, I have no way to judge that. What I can comment on is your support for a person and an organisation that is so blatantly in contradiction with a tradition they claim to represent and have been, ostensibly, excommunicated from. If you cannot see the contradictions, well, then...

[Mr. G]

maybe you are misinformed? Prof.Thurman and GMR speak on the phone frequently enough. i know, because there is a certain translator living with him in NY who has told me so.

The article was written in 2008. What I was pointing out is that Michael Roach's behavior is neither accepted by H.H. Dalai Lama, academics, or laypeople.

yes, i know about that email from the Office. as for His Holiness' position on consorts + monks, that was already covered in another thread here, and it is not beyond the realm of possibility....Yes, these aren't points of debate, since no debates were had. these are corrections of wrong information.

Oh, I don't doubt your ability to give every person free reign to act and say as they please in the name of "Crazy Wisdom". Perhaps I'm too old and jaded for that schtick.

[Dechen Norbu]

Usually I'm not in the habit of explaining my moderating decisions openly, but I'll make an exception this time since the thread was now in turn of 5heaps defense of Michael Roach.
I should inform you that 5heaps forcefully took a 7 days vacation from this board due to his insulting and offensive conduct. In one post, now removed from sight, he was extremely offensive ("i constantly rely on scholastic work from Hopkins, Berzin, Roach, etcetc and i cannot stand keyboard toughguys with diarrhea of the mind spreading their diarrhea of the mouth.")
A formal warning was issued, with no further disciplinary action.
He insisted in this conduct calling all of those who criticize MR mindless people, mere "lightweights" who "fell into line" with Namdrol's opinion. I do appreciate Namdrol's contributions, but thank goodness I have a mind of my own. Others he might be referring also do. We, me and Namdrol, had for a while strong disagreements about one or two subjects and he knows I never changed my mind. Honesty is what bases our relation I think. After all these years dealing with Namdrol, one thing I know for sure is that he appreciates straightforwardness and doesn't like sycophants. Neither my personality is suitable to such traits.

The simple fact of someone defending Roach, after all that has been said and done, should be reason to a permanent ban if you ask me.
Still disciplinary action was not taken because of that, but because of his offensive conduct towards other members of this board.
We try to be mild and have a process that goes by steps. 5heaps was formally warned. He persisted in his behavior and got a small suspension. I hope he reviews his conduct when he returns, but somehow I have my suspicions. After all I'm talking about someone who is defending Roach...

I would now ask you to stick to the topic. I don't see much use in debating Michael Roach's qualifications as a Buddhist teacher considering his behavior.

[Adamantine]

The simple fact of someone defending Roach, after all that has been said and done, should be reason to a permanent ban if you ask me.

I think if anyone came to this board with a tone of kindness, and respect for opposing viewpoints, and in that context expressed their support for Roach and could in some way make their case for how those teachings correspond to authentic dharma.. then I wouldn't think they should be banned. Maybe no one would agree with them, but I don't think opposing views should be suppressed here. (Unless, as with other groups, it is decided by the mods to ban all discussion altogether)
It is the hysterical, angry, aggressive and overemotional tone that many supporters seem to display that is the problem, and none of that behavior represents the community they are trying to defend very well, so it is counterproductive to their cause. The fact they don't even see this is not a good indication for their mental equilibrium.

[Dechen Norbu]

Of course Adamantine. I was joking.
People are free to present their points of view. However they must address criticism properly and try not to insult others while at it (I'm not even asking for kindness).
Let me give you an example. Imagine someone came here with a good impression of Mr X. Then, others would tell him that Mr. X was in fact an assassin and such was public knowledge. In spite of that, and by means of sophistry including insult and other ad hominem, such person would ignore the facts known about Mr X and still claimed such person was in fact excellent. Now, we can't have this, can we?
The point here is that MR behavior, publicly known, is shameful for any Buddhist, let alone for a Buddhist teacher. If someone refuses to acknowledge that, in spite of all that is known, and uses sophistry and insult to cast suspicions over the character of those criticizing Roach, then we have a problem.

[kirtu]

do you seriously believe that the 100s of people who have studied at DM, many of whom have many other dharma teachers outside of DM, are all following a cult? do you really believe you are in a position to assert that?

I have students that study Buddhist sati meditation with me and simultaneously are members of the Osho cult. What is so difficult to understand about that?

its difficult to understand, because when someone is sufficiently trained they are be able to discern the difference between authentic buddhism and a buddhist-inspired cult

And it is apparently not the case that the people at DM have been sufficiently trained or are exercising their discrimination.

Otherwise they would have left after the Roach-McNally relationship was revealed AND Roach didn't take appropriate action and definitely when the syncretic stuff started. McNally as VY in the flesh?

Lama Zopa was very clear on Roach's claims to some degree of enlightenment (Roach openly claiming to be on the bhumi's ?).

Kirt

[Huifeng]

Namo Gurubhya! Namo Buddhaya! Namo Dharmaya! Namo Sanghaya!

Let's continue to send out our positive prayers and thoughts for this poor Dharma brother who has so sadly passed away.
May he be freed from the suffering in this life, and find a most auspicious rebirth to continue his path towards awakening.
May those others who have suffered from this, his mother and father, family and friends, also be freed from their grief.

Namo Gurubhya! Namo Buddhaya! Namo Dharmaya! Namo Sanghaya!

~~ Huifeng

[Adamantine]

Namo Gurubhya! Namo Buddhaya! Namo Dharmaya! Namo Sanghaya!

Let's continue to send out our positive prayers and thoughts for this poor Dharma brother who has so sadly passed away.
May he be freed from the suffering in this life, and find a most auspicious rebirth to continue his path towards awakening.
May those others who have suffered from this, his mother and father, family and friends, also be freed from their grief.

Namo Gurubhya! Namo Buddhaya! Namo Dharmaya! Namo Sanghaya!

~~ Huifeng

Yeah, this is a better mindset for sure. Thanks for changing the gears on this thread Huifeng.

[LunaRoja]

Namo Gurubhya! Namo Buddhaya! Namo Dharmaya! Namo Sanghaya!

Let's continue to send out our positive prayers and thoughts for this poor Dharma brother who has so sadly passed away.
May he be freed from the suffering in this life, and find a most auspicious rebirth to continue his path towards awakening.
May those others who have suffered from this, his mother and father, family and friends, also be freed from their grief.

Namo Gurubhya! Namo Buddhaya! Namo Dharmaya! Namo Sanghaya!

~~ Huifeng

Yeah, this is a better mindset for sure. Thanks for changing the gears on this thread Huifeng.

Yes, I agree. My prayers are with the people in this community right now who are clearly suffering from this loss.

[Dechen Norbu]

Namo Gurubhya! Namo Buddhaya! Namo Dharmaya! Namo Sanghaya!

Let's continue to send out our positive prayers and thoughts for this poor Dharma brother who has so sadly passed away.
May he be freed from the suffering in this life, and find a most auspicious rebirth to continue his path towards awakening.
May those others who have suffered from this, his mother and father, family and friends, also be freed from their grief.

Namo Gurubhya! Namo Buddhaya! Namo Dharmaya! Namo Sanghaya!

~~ Huifeng

[LunaRoja]

Here is the latest news story from Arizona...

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valley ... hael_r.php

[Adamantine]

An update on Elephant from Remski: http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/05/tragedy-at-diamond-mountain-an-update/