Teacher & Root Guru

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Totoro » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:09 pm

Thank you very very much, Namdrol-la. :namaste:
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Karma Lodro Senge » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:59 pm

I have met countless teachers and Rinpoches. From HH Dalai Lama and HH 17th Karmapa to you name it. But I NEVER experienced what I felt like the time I first met and sat in front of Thrangu Rinpoche (my root guru). Even before either of us said a single word, I knew right then that he would be my root guru. He is also the one that ordained me.
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Yeti » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:03 pm

I'm not much of a practitioner. When I finally felt I had to do ngon.dro and approach the vajrayana I didn't really know who my root guru was. The teacher who gave me the practices, empowerments and instruction was highly respected, but I thought he probably wasn't my root guru as I thought I would need a root guru to be someone who understood English so I could communicate directly with them. But the more I got into ngon.dro practice, the more those preconceptions dropped away and the presence of one particular lama began to haunt me as if embedded in the practices, and that was what was essential for me. That's how I found out who it was (which encompasses other teachers as his manifestation). Just my very limited experience. May or may not be relevant.
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Wesley1982 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:49 pm

... :namaste:
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:02 pm

More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:25 am

Blue Garuda wrote:More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.


Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby humanpreta » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:44 am

Jyoti wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.


Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.
Last edited by humanpreta on Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby humanpreta » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:45 am

Jyoti wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.


Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.


:toilet:
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby heart » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:54 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.


Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.


Yes, the vidya is the true Guru. It cannot be fathomed by the conceptual mind and so, based on the merits and aspiration of student, the outer Guru appears and indicate the true Guru, the vidya, to the student.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:42 pm

A little something from the text Mahamudra - The Ocean of True Meaning by the 9th Karmapa Wangchug Dorje:
The teacher who is guiding should at best have completed the qualities of abandonment and realization himself, and know the level of development of the students. If such a teacher is not available, it should be someone who has not just requested, obtained, and practiced the Dharma in a superficial manner, and left it at that, but rather someone who has himself practiced with perseverance and brought forth faultless meditative experiences, and who can guide others in accordance with it. Other kinds of guidance, like the boisterous instructions of a charlatan, the invented instructions of a pretentious person, the textual explanations of someone with little knowledge, and the misleading instructions of a braggart should be avoided. The word explanations of a scholar, the practical instructions of a great meditator, the guidance based on experience of a yogi, the wisdom instructions of a realized master, and the pointing-out instructions for old woman are compatible in purpose.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Nilasarasvati » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:48 pm

:woohoo:
gregkavarnos wrote:A little something from the text Mahamudra - The Ocean of True Meaning by the 9th Karmapa Wangchug Dorje:
The teacher who is guiding should at best have completed the qualities of abandonment and realization himself, and know the level of development of the students. If such a teacher is not available, it should be someone who has not just requested, obtained, and practiced the Dharma in a superficial manner, and left it at that, but rather someone who has himself practiced with perseverance and brought forth faultless meditative experiences, and who can guide others in accordance with it. Other kinds of guidance, like the boisterous instructions of a charlatan, the invented instructions of a pretentious person, the textual explanations of someone with little knowledge, and the misleading instructions of a braggart should be avoided. The word explanations of a scholar, the practical instructions of a great meditator, the guidance based on experience of a yogi, the wisdom instructions of a realized master, and the pointing-out instructions for old woman are compatible in purpose.


Should that read "The pointing-out instructions of an old woman?"

What is the Karmapa referring to there? Old Dakinis?
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:10 pm

No. I do believe he is referring to pointing out instructions that were given by some famous Mahamudra master (that alludes me right now) to his mother. That type (or class) of pointing out instruction. I imagine, given the social circumstances of women in Tibet-of-old, it means pointing out instructions for an uneducated (or non-intellectual) follower that has heartfelt faith as their mainstay.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Nilasarasvati » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:16 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:No. I do believe he is referring to pointing out instructions that were given by some famous Mahamudra master (that alludes me right now) to his mother. That type (or class) of pointing out instruction. I imagine, given the social circumstances of women in Tibet-of-old, it means pointing out instructions for an uneducated (or non-intellectual) follower that has heartfelt faith as their mainstay.


That would make sense.
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:25 pm

Actually, now that I think about it, it was a pointing-out by Gampopa to his mother.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:12 pm

Nilasarasvati wrote:Should that read "The pointing-out instructions of an old woman?"

What is the Karmapa referring to there? Old Dakinis?
Actually my dear Nila, it seems that your intuition trumps my misinformation. I received the abovementioned instruction this year at the Mahamudra retreat I attended and It seems that it is a mistake in the translation (my teacher was working directly from the Tibetan). It refers to pointing out instructions of/from an old woman. A vague, non-intellectual indirect method of pointing out, that may not even refer to the process, or even to what is being pointed out. He likened it to asking an old woman about the moon: in her description of the moon she may even point to the night sky, but will not even point in the direction of the moon itself, which happens to be sitting there plainly in sight.

So scratch out my scholarly explanation and hand me the well fitting dunce cap! Image

PS Yet another perfect example why one needs a well informed and qualified teacher.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Koji » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:50 pm

Westerners who take up Tibetan traditions often believe that following a guru will lead to bodhi. So to speak, if the guru eats garlic, the student will fart garlic. This is nonsense. Buddhas and gurus only point the way. They won't carry us through burning samsara or paddle us to the other shore. As much as westerners think, "I am different" they usually end up becoming guru followers. They never stand on the shoulder's of giants.
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby heart » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:49 pm

Koji wrote:Westerners who take up Tibetan traditions often believe that following a guru will lead to bodhi. So to speak, if the guru eats garlic, the student will fart garlic. This is nonsense. Buddhas and gurus only point the way. They won't carry us through burning samsara or paddle us to the other shore. As much as westerners think, "I am different" they usually end up becoming guru followers. They never stand on the shoulder's of giants.


The "No Guru, No Method, No Teacher" trip is a lot of hot air. Most people have no idea what t means to have a Guru, it certainly isn't farting garlic. :smile:

/magnus
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Ramon1920 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:32 pm

There are some shameless people playing guru pressuring naive strangers into taking vows and committing to them before the students even know if they're qualified. Once that student is on the hook they take full advantage of that student as a cult slave and limit their communication with others by making rules about seeing other teachers or their students.

I have no problem saying if you take vows from such a con artist there is no fault in leaving them and warning others about their cult. You will not go to Vajra hell for taking vows from a con artist because they could not have had Vajrayana vows to give if they collected students for their personal use. Inform people in the Vajrayana community around you of what's going on, a lot can be accomplished by word of mouth and don't feel guilty for doing so. No one in their right mind will blame you for leaving a corrupt teacher.

Also, even good gurus can develop mental illness later in life. It's important to know when to disregard what even your guru has said.
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Konchog1 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:58 am

Ramon1920 wrote:There are some shameless people playing guru pressuring naive strangers into taking vows and committing to them before the students even know if they're qualified. Once that student is on the hook they take full advantage of that student as a cult slave and limit their communication with others by making rules about seeing other teachers or their students.

I have no problem saying if you take vows from such a con artist there is no fault in leaving them and warning others about their cult. You will not go to Vajra hell for taking vows from a con artist because they could not have had Vajrayana vows to give if they collected students for their personal use. Inform people in the Vajrayana community around you of what's going on, a lot can be accomplished by word of mouth and don't feel guilty for doing so. No one in their right mind will blame you for leaving a corrupt teacher.

Also, even good gurus can develop mental illness later in life. It's important to know when to disregard what even your guru has said.
I've never seen it explicitly said anywhere, but my impression is that vows and pledges received from a samaya breaker is invalid since initiations are.

Since an abusive person would be breaking his vows every time he was abusive, any vows, pledges, or initiations he gives would be invalid.
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"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Postby Ramon1920 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:24 am

Konchog1 wrote:
Ramon1920 wrote:There are some shameless people playing guru pressuring naive strangers into taking vows and committing to them before the students even know if they're qualified. Once that student is on the hook they take full advantage of that student as a cult slave and limit their communication with others by making rules about seeing other teachers or their students.

I have no problem saying if you take vows from such a con artist there is no fault in leaving them and warning others about their cult. You will not go to Vajra hell for taking vows from a con artist because they could not have had Vajrayana vows to give if they collected students for their personal use. Inform people in the Vajrayana community around you of what's going on, a lot can be accomplished by word of mouth and don't feel guilty for doing so. No one in their right mind will blame you for leaving a corrupt teacher.

Also, even good gurus can develop mental illness later in life. It's important to know when to disregard what even your guru has said.
I've never seen it explicitly said anywhere, but my impression is that vows and pledges received from a samaya breaker is invalid since initiations are.

Since an abusive person would be breaking his vows every time he was abusive, any vows, pledges, or initiations he gives would be invalid.


There are specific aspects to breaking vows, some abuse might not constitute a full break, others do. But in general an abusive teacher would have invalidated everything they claimed to offer to a student.

A student of course will be adverse to recognizing this because they've invested in receiving empowerments and vows. If their teacher is invalid that means they are invalid to some degree and a lot of time is wasted. I myself as a young man had to face this reality and have recovered from it due to my confidence in the Buddha and dedication to Bodhicitta, so it's possible to come out unscathed.

As a young man, I made vows with the first lama I met, but when he tried to give me the first empowerment I recognized I was not dealing with a mahasiddha he had convinced me he was. Later he made it clear he kept no vows at all, and still later I found out that the lineage head he claimed to be the heart son had broken ties with because of samaya breaches and to begin with only given him a few empowerments, the major of which he didn't even receive the entire empowerment. In the end I wasted a lot of time and money on the charlatan, but fortunately not long after contacting his supposed teacher he was crippled by a sudden illness that left him barely able to talk.
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