Wine and Meat Offerings?

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Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby wisdom » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:37 am

I have seen that Dzogchen considers both Wine and Meat acceptable offerings to be made.

How does this fit in with the 5 Precepts, and why is it considered OK? I know some practitioners eat meat and drink alcohol, and that's fine with me. Really my question is from a technical standpoint, how are these offerings seen, what do they stand for or represent when made as offerings?
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:39 am

Greetings Wisdom

Out of the Transubstantiated Five Offerings (Grain/Bread, Grape/Wine, Fish, Red Meat, Maithuna) related to the Five Elements, it's said that only the Wine and the Bread are completely necessary; and the Wine does not have to be fermented either from what I understand. Although I'm sure it varies with different schools. I'd actually planned on starting a thread about this eventually; and have more to say about this topic, although for right now the following would help your understanding:


Buddhist:

Dharma Fellowship Essay: Ganachakra Puja

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche: Ganapuja

Hindu Tantra:

Pancatattva Ritual

Christian-Gnostic:

Communion/Eucharist


Meat provides more of the Fire Element or Tattva for working with Candali, Tummo, Tsa-Lung, and Karmamudra/Maithuna.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby heart » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:49 am

wisdom wrote:I have seen that Dzogchen considers both Wine and Meat acceptable offerings to be made.

How does this fit in with the 5 Precepts, and why is it considered OK? I know some practitioners eat meat and drink alcohol, and that's fine with me. Really my question is from a technical standpoint, how are these offerings seen, what do they stand for or represent when made as offerings?


Your question is actually a general Vajrayana question not a Dzogchen question really. First, eating meat and drinking a small amount of alcohol don't make you break the five precepts unless they are interpreted very strictly.

In a ganachakra alcohol and meat are necessary parts. The practice of ganachackra is a very profound part of the Vajrayana and is a direct application of view. To fully appreciate a ganachakra is a long process of study and practice. From the point of view of the lower yanas it just doesn't make sense.

/magnus
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:29 pm

I had a "die hard" vegan vajra brother over for a protector tsok. I told him to bring (strong) alcohol and something for us to eat, something with meat in it AS WELL. Lately he has an aversion to strong alcohol due to a bit of a binge and his attitude to meat... well I won't go into that.

I personally am a vegetarian and have taken the precept regarding alcohol, but this is ganachakra puja, there is no breaking of either my vow on drinking or my vegetarianism during ganachakra puja becuase the substances are not defined accoring to dualistic notions, they are "transubstantiated" into nectar. For those that eat meat and drink alcohol anyway, well... but for those of us that don't, then this practice becomes a real practice!

Back to my friend. Being a stingey prick and trying to be a smart ass he rocks up with a small bottle of beer and a can of cat food (he could justify to himself buying meat as cat food coz he considers himself an animal liberationist).

I whip out the extra strong homemade moonshine and open the cat food and place it amongst the offerings. Well, when it came time to the sharing, I dip my fingers into the cat food and... that is when he finally got an idea about what it is all about.

Do you get it now?
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Pero » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:57 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I personally am a vegetarian and have taken the precept regarding alcohol, but this is ganachakra puja, there is no breaking of either my vow on drinking or my vegetarianism during ganachakra puja becuase the substances are not defined accoring to dualistic notions, they are "transubstantiated" into nectar. For those that eat meat and drink alcohol anyway, well... but for those of us that don't, then this practice becomes a real practice!

So the rest of us that do eat meat don't do a real practice? That's nonsense Greg.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:05 pm

Pero wrote:So the rest of us that do eat meat don't do a real practice? That's nonsense Greg.
Should have put the "real" in quotation marks. One of the ideas of the ganachakra puja was to get over the Brahmanic attachment to concepts of the impurity of certain substances. If you already eat meat and drink alcohol then obviously you do not consider them impure. In this case it would be a stronger practice for you to eat, lets say, boiled sheeps head during the practice. Ever smelt boiled sheeps head? Seen it staring at you with glazed eyes, tongue hanging out and teeth clenched in a rictus grin? Cracked open it's skull and eat its brains? Pull out its eyeball and slurp it down? (my lama gets this deal happening on protector days) What about some raw fish guts? Now we are starting to challenge some concepts.

What about a kapala full of the five nectars? A little too advanced maybe?

Your bruised ego recovered yet or should I go on?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Pero » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:27 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Pero wrote:So the rest of us that do eat meat don't do a real practice? That's nonsense Greg.
Should have put the "real" in quotation marks. One of the ideas of the ganachakra puja was to get over the Brahmanic attachment to concepts of the impurity of certain substances.


Your bruised ego recovered yet or should I go on?

:roll:

:namaste:

:roll:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby conebeckham » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:32 pm

This should perhaps be moved to general Tibetan Buddhist forum, it's actually less about Dzokchen and more about Mahayoga/Anuttarayogatantra in general.

And, frankly, I don't think there should too much discussion about the five meats and five nectars, the inner offering, on a public board. This is one of those "ask your lama" questions, in my opinion.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:37 pm

conebeckham wrote:And, frankly, I don't think there should too much discussion about the five meats and five nectars, the inner offering, on a public board. This is one of those "ask your lama" questions, in my opinion.
There wasn't... ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:48 pm

Im glad this was brought up. I am still struggling with this. Does anyone know if Shabkar Lama paticipated in Ganapujas?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:10 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Im glad this was brought up. I am still struggling with this. Does anyone know if Shabkar Lama paticipated in Ganapujas?



He did.

Ganapujas are about going beyind limitations.

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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:17 pm

Thank you very much. This takes a load off of my mind. I just have not been able to get past this but maybe now I can.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Virgo » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:23 am

There are levels of vows, and following them can get complex. Generally, as far as I know, the higher set of vows always comes first. So if you have Hinayana, Mahayana (Bodhisattva vows) vows, and Tantric vows, you keep all three but if two of them conflict you should break the lower one to keep the higher one. General moral vows, such as the five precepts are Hinayana level vows.

What is good enough for the Dakinis is good enough for me.

Should you reject the pure offerings, it would be a graver offense than breaking the precept against alcohol, for example, since you would be doing things wrong and breaking a higher vow in order to keep a lower one.

After all, we practice tantra since it has a better tool set, and allows you to take passion on the path. So touching my woman for example, is part of my practice, bringing me towards enlightenment, since it helps me purify my deluded concepts of pure and impure. Not doing it, would be a loss for me. Nothing will stand in my way, so I will also take passion onto the path, being a child of passion myself.

Right now is a ganapuja of sorts.

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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby narraboth » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:26 pm

theoritically they shouldn't even let outsiders see wine and meat on the shrine.

but anyway, you can really limited the use of them to a degree... actually i don't really think most of meat used nowadays is that .... proper. It should be from animals naturally died, but i doubt if you can really buy this kind of meat anywhere. (I don't even think it's legal to sell naturally died animal meat)

i have heard some monks saying that the dam dze (samaya substance) pills already contain very small amount of correctly prepared those stuffs, and it's enough, you don't need much because it's just a simbol.

but ofcourse i have seen events that was with lots of meats and sausages, lots of wine and wiskey etc... can't comment on that really. I can only qoute what great Lonchenpa said in his works:
if a so-called yogi carelessly take alcohol and get drunk, he will surely fall to the lowest realm.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:49 pm

narraboth wrote:theoritically they shouldn't even let outsiders see wine and meat on the shrine.




Those of us who follow ChNN follow what ChNN has to say. In this case, he says buy meat from markets, as many kinds as possible, sausage is better since it is made from the meat of many animals. When used in a ganapuja, it creates a cause for that animal's liberation.

Wine should be consumed in a mindful manner.

When you follow ChNN you follow the system of Dzogchen as he teaches it, since he is the only teacher that I know for a fact is a realized Dzogchen master. I am sure there are others, but I do not know that for a fact nor who they are. But I know ChNN is an awakened person and this is not because of my faith. This is because he has described his experience openly to a large extent. So I am certain he is an awakened person, beyond any doubt whatsoever.

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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby narraboth » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:25 pm

Namdrol wrote:Those of us who follow ChNN follow what ChNN has to say. In this case, he says buy meat from markets, as many kinds as possible, sausage is better since it is made from the meat of many animals. When used in a ganapuja, it creates a cause for that animal's liberation.

N


well, not only his dzogchen group did that (i didn't know his community did that, since i have never joined any). I met several people from their group in other nyingma events though, yes they were more... 'enjoying' themselves with those special food or drink, which was not a bad thing i guess.

I guess it's fine in western world, because those animals were killed and in supermarket already, it's not like in india or tibet when you order meat the butchers killed animals for you in the earlier day. And to be honest, many of us do eat killed animals meat anyway, in puja or not.

There are really two views of this, one is mainly from great dza patrul rinpoche, as in Kunzang Lama Shelung he suggested that offering killed meat to wisdom deities is like offering a killed child's meat to his mother. Quite convincing i have to say. While Dudjom Lingpa described in his autobiography that meat offering is quite necessary especially for like wrathful dharma protectors. "We protectors also like what you practictioners like to eat" dharma protectors told dudjom lingpa in his vision. I am not sure if that means protectors will like vegetables if the practitioner is a vegan. :tongue:
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:32 pm

narraboth wrote:
There are really two views of this, one is mainly from great dza patrul rinpoche, as in Kunzang Lama Shelung he suggested that offering killed meat to wisdom deities is like offering a killed child's meat to his mother.


But of course wisdom deities do not perceive offerings in this way. This is our perception.

Quite convincing i have to say.


If your view is lower tantra, perhaps.


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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby narraboth » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:45 pm

Namdrol wrote:
narraboth wrote:
There are really two views of this, one is mainly from great dza patrul rinpoche, as in Kunzang Lama Shelung he suggested that offering killed meat to wisdom deities is like offering a killed child's meat to his mother.


But of course wisdom deities do not perceive offerings in this way. This is our perception.

Quite convincing i have to say.


If your view is lower tantra, perhaps.

N


Not sure if that means dza paltrul rinpoche hold a 'lower tantra' view in his famous Longchen Nyingthig Ngondro guidance book. It doesn't look like that from the whole paragraph in the book. I don't know how wisdom deities accept offering, but if they will feel 'happy', probably won't be because you kill some animals for offering them.
well, please don't take it as an attack to any group, as i said i am not against buying meat from supermarket in western/modern world. :tongue:
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:53 pm

narraboth wrote: I don't know how wisdom deities accept offering


Without duality.




but if they will feel 'happy', probably won't be because you kill some animals for offering them.


Wisdom deities are in a state of total equanimity. If there is negative consequence to killing animals for a ganapouja, it is because the act is predicated on ignorance and falls in the class fo the ten non-virtues.



well, please don't take it as an attack to any group,


Not attacking anyone, merely pointing out that there are differences in views.

In this case, it is better for people to follow the advice of their individual teacher, rather than a teacher in a book. Every teacher has a different teaching because people are different and need different things. But if someone falls into Dozghen Community, then it is better they heed ChNN's instructions -- the same goes for everyone else.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby narraboth » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:30 pm

I totally agree that people should follow what their master said, but i disagree that it's about "view", otherwise it will be an attack to dza paltrul rinpoche and all other nyingma monasteries/centres/groups following his trandition (or 'book').

No, preventing offer meat (at least fresh meat) is not 'lower tantra' view, because you don't even need to talk about meat to lower tantra practioners, they just don't use it. It is out of compassion and proper conducts of buddhism. Maybe just like ChNN advicing his group to 'buy meats from as many animals as possible', it's out of compassion (not because the view is higher, otherwise meat from one animal and many animals should be equal isn't it :smile: ). I don't see there's right or wrong between the two methods (as i was quoting from two great masters), but it's really nothing to do with the views. I don't think dza paltrul rinpoche's view would be lower than many masters at anytime, but i very appreciate that he pointed out important things that people easily miss in so-called high views. But of course, if someone can see sh*t equally as tasty sausages, he can comfortably say whay he want to say.
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