Wine and Meat Offerings?

[LastLegend]

Oh just a test my friend to see if one is still attached to eating.

[Adamantine]

I don't need that test to know I'm still attached to eating!

[Josef]

I don't need that test to know I'm still attached to eating!

Me neither I crushed In N Out Burger this afternoon.

[mantrika]

Hello. I had to drop by and leave a comment. I know one way to find out if one is still attaching to the habit of eating like Ron said, one can eat only one thing everyday for 10 days to see if the craving is still there for other food. Say eating brown rice everyday for example.

Doesnt work.
Asceticism is contrary to the principle of Vajrayana.

I don't agreed, developing some renunciation is very useful for Vajrayana practice. To say it doesn't work is just plain wrong. Sure renunciation as such is part of Hinayana and Mahayana as classified by Tibetans and Vajrayana is the path of transformation. But if you haven't developed some renunciation first your Vajrayana practice will be somewhat lacking.
Eating one thing only for 10 days is not some form of extreme asceticism. A simple diet of only rice or something similar and not much else is pretty common within Monasteries of all traditions.
Also it is within Vajrayana that you will find the most extreme sorts of asceticism when it comes to diet. The hermits and anyone who does a retreat. Milarepa who lived on nothing but nettle soup, what about feeding from a small rock in your mouth or just air? Also many practices like chulen and others. The intention behind these is of course not renunciation or asceticism of the sake of being ascetic, just to be clear. But newer the less i think your comment was misleading.

[mantrika]

Also eating a mono diet for a period can be part of a detox as is practiced within Tibetan medicine and Ayurveda. This is inner alchemy and in that regard very much tantra.

[Adamantine]

Mantrika all your points are good... it is true especially that when engaged in retreat to essentialize both time for practice and funds it can be useful to eat a simple diet... and many Tibetans have gone to extremes such as mono-diets of nettles or tsampa for this reason. But they wouldn't have chosen to do so out of some misguided ascetic deprivation if they had ready access to more nutritious and better-tasting food!

Chulen is different it is a specific and advanced practice and not to be confused with the larger issue. In Vajrayana it is very important to have the body as healthy as possible and this includes a balanced diet based on Tibetan Medical principals. A cleanse is a rare and temporary thing and another matter!

Eating a mono-diet anyway just to test if you are attached to food is silly! It's easy to determine that simply by observing oneself in the act of eating... or by giving up your favorite food/s for a period of time, etc. But I would assume this would only be justified behavior if a person thought they may have already transcended their desire for or attachement to food in the first place!

[Pero]

When I went to a personal retreat I thought my biggest attachment was my laptop and internet. I was wrong. It was sweets! While I occasionally remembered my laptop and net, there was no problem, it was even refreshing to be without it. On the other hand, I practically ran out of sweets after four days and so the next three days I had to go on one cookie per day. During those three days I sometimes thought I was going to go insane.

[Tara]

Many of the posts in this thread are off topic.

If members wish to discuss dietary habits etc please start another topic in an appropriate forum.

"Wine and Meat Offerings?"

Regards,

[mantrika]

Mantrika all your points are good... it is true especially that when engaged in retreat to essentialize both time for practice and funds it can be useful to eat a simple diet... and many Tibetans have gone to extremes such as mono-diets of nettles or tsampa for this reason. But they wouldn't have chosen to do so out of some misguided ascetic deprivation if they had ready access to more nutritious and better-tasting food!

Chulen is different it is a specific and advanced practice and not to be confused with the larger issue. In Vajrayana it is very important to have the body as healthy as possible and this includes a balanced diet based on Tibetan Medical principals. A cleanse is a rare and temporary thing and another matter!

Eating a mono-diet anyway just to test if you are attached to food is silly! It's easy to determine that simply by observing oneself in the act of eating... or by giving up your favorite food/s for a period of time, etc. But I would assume this would only be justified behavior if a person thought they may have already transcended their desire for or attachement to food in the first place!

I see nothing wrong with experimenting like this if one is so inclined. Sort of like a scientist and finding out more about yourself. To test your will power, find out about how your mind and body works in such a situation. We are talking about 10 days..
Nothing silly with that. Different strokes for different folks.
Why has everything to be either justified or condemned?

[mantrika]

Many of the posts in this thread are off topic.

If members wish to discuss dietary habits etc please start another topic in an appropriate forum.

"Wine and Meat Offerings?"

Regards,

Yes you are right. We got carried away from the topic.

[Adamantine]

Why has everything to be either justified or condemned?

If you're talking to me I wasn't condemning anything just pointing out that the mono-diet exercise was most likely unnecessary to determine if you are still attached to food! Plus not all that healthy either.

[Tara]

Topic locked.

It appears to have veered off course so to speak and "Wine and Meat Offerings?" no longer seems to be the focus. Feel free to start another topic regarding dietary habits in an appropriate forum.

Regards,

[Tara]

Topic unlocked.

Having now had time to read this topic from the beginning I realize I may have acted too hastily, misjudged what was going on and incorrectly locked the topic. Apologies to all concerned.

Regards,

[Adamantine]

Thanks Tara for unlocking: just to summarize/clarify:

there are two streams of thought in this thread, -- one is that the tsok offerings are about going beyond limitations, and thus if one eats meat regularly or has in the past then there is no need to do it in tsok..

another is that the meat and alcohol are there for specific multilayered reasons and should not be replaced.

i'll just point out that in Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's teaching at one point he talks about this, how meat was used as a taboo substance that caused disgust and was for the purpose of going beyond that limitation, etc. but that now when most people delight in eating meat daily, something better for the purpose would be to offer a plate of shit for tsok. now, i am fairly confident that if he truly meant this and gave the vajra command his close students would follow his advice. but on the contrary, meat and alcohol are offered at the tsoks hosted by his community of students, according to his instructions, so there is clearly something more to it, even if that was a teaching point and one (outdated) reason.

[ronnewmexico]

To venture a option....perhaps is earlier students were of that demeanor and the later ones of another that was not favorable to the other approach.

My feeling being basically it is a individual teachers determination depending upon the dispostions of the student.
There being no blanket answer...we then can only respond in a individual fashion...well I do this or that...but another must check with their teacher.

My daily offering to compliment this specific.... alcohol...but the teaching was conducted without alcohol and the offering I then do is not alcohol but fruit juice. The teaching text states alcohol...so what we do and what is written with permission of the lama differing.
I'd suggest for another group of students...perhaps it must be alcohol.

Meat...no meat do I ever recall seeing on our offering alter....so text may specify that....I do as instructed.
Instruction being the example of the teaching ceremony not the written text that accompanies the teaching.
What is done is the teaching not the text by my take.

The teacher being the buddha in this regard certainly not the text. It being the buddha we must emulate not the words written around or about the buddha.
I am not saying anyone is saying anything different..just to express this is my view upon the question clarified.

Nice job on defineing it up that way...A...very clear and concise.

[Adamantine]

My daily offering to compliment this specific.... alcohol...but the teaching was conducted without alcohol and the offering I then do is not alcohol but fruit juice.

Ron if you are talking about a daily offering practice then it is a bit different than tsok offerings.

What is the nature of your daily offering? Is it an evening offering to the dharma protectors? A morning offering to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas?

[ronnewmexico]

This offering is a requirement of my sadahana. My commitment requires it. It is of the wrathful kind.

[Adamantine]

Well it is probably a dharmapala offering so it's
a bit different than a full tsok practice in substance and meaning.

[conebeckham]

There are plenty of Yidam practices where one has a comitment to offer and/or "offer to oneself," the Inner Offering, which is usually comprised partly of alcohol--this is different than the "wine and meat offerings" of tsok, but related in a sense.

[ronnewmexico]

Yes tsok.

I stay with my point...... we in all situations do our various practices as our teacher, being the representation of the buddha when teaching, has taught us.
It seems to my observation they may be tailored by the lama to individual predispostions a bit. Not grossly but a bit.
This is how my practice was taught, so I do it this way. I do not suppose anyone is taught by their lama to do things that are not appropriate for that practice.....this is trusting the lama...there is no question in that.

So becomes the question....is there any other answer to this question then to do as we were taught?

I can think of no circumstance in which we should not do as we are taught in this thing in all eventualities, excepting our teacher advises us to do other.
In any event this is the teachers determination not ours.

Tsok or this or that....the answer seems to me the same.....as we were taught. It seems not our determination but our teachers.

Suffice it to say there may be reasons for doing things in a way that is contrary to established book type ways of doing things.
Some have been versed on this thread...but it is always to my opinion our teachers decision on this not ours.
If the teacher says it is ours...then it is ours..not before.