Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

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Heruka
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Heruka »

Karma Dorje wrote:
Heruka wrote: i was talking in general about the fantasy that there are mahasiddhas out there, i just dont care about these other things you mention, anything outside of my karmic door, is just not my business.
It's not a fantasy. How exactly are these times any different than medieval India? Most (but not all) of the mahasiddhas I have met are fully ordained monks. If they don't fit into your worldview, that's perfectly fine but dont' accuse other's of "magical thinking" lest you be accused of being mechanistic and dull.
and this is supposed to stop any logical line of reason and inquiry? Do i simply accept you seeing mahasiddhas mostly everywhere you look as a reality because you affirm it is that way so as to not offend you? Your own admission is that it is a faith based arrived at idea you cherrish, and that realization in no way due to good merit or behaviour, ethics or morality.....which is just bizzare in terms of the buddhas teaching would you not agree?


"I personally am in no position to judge Trungpa Rinpoche and I still have faith in him regardless of his behaviour, because in the final analysis realization has very little to do with morality"

these are your words my friend. Then you say...


"I am not a follower of Trungpa. I am not looking to excuse his behaviour"
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wisdom
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by wisdom »

I would point out that there is Enlightenment and Perfect Enlightenment. There is the Stream Enterer and the Arahat.

Only at the third stage of Enlightenment is a person free from sensual desires. Yet anyone of the first three stages has realized the truth of Dharma and by that measure can teach it to benefit others. If anyone really thinks that every qualified Guru is completely realized and attained they are being delusional. The forces of sensual desire are extremely difficult to completely eradicate. Even to get to the second stage is difficult for most because it means you are almost entirely indifferent to them. It means that if ten of the most beautiful women you have ever seen offer a drug induced orgy with you that you can smile and turn them down as it would just be a distraction from what you are trying to accomplish. It also means that you are so free from sensual desire that upon obtaining fame and power (such as with a popular Guru) you wold not in any way use that fame or power, for the most part, to indulge those desires. That temptation would have almost no power over you no matter how great. Thats what it means to be merely a Sakadagami, let alone to be of the third or fourth stages. For most people that IS a superhuman feat, not only to accomplish but to truly consider.

The idea that every guru must be some perfect fully realized being is a noble one, but ultimately wrong in my opinion. Yet equally wrong is the conception that in order to be fully realized one must be born in Tibet and recognized as a reincarnated master at the age of 2 or some such thing. Controversy has surrounded most Gurus and Lamas whether or not the accusations are true. Even Ghandi had much controversy. Lets look at the life of the Great Siddartha. He spent his youth indulging every sensual pleasure there was. Seeing they were inherently empty and devoid of fulfillment, he sought Wisdom. In the end he became one of the greatest spiritual teachers of all time. I understand there is a difference between that and trying to cover up controversy but also understand the western mindset of the "perfect guru syndrome" and why gurus might think its important to not expose any fault they may have had or may still be working on since they might not be perfect fully realized beings.

In the end I will give you a quote that I have cherished since I first read it, it comes from the Islamic Tradition of Jesus Christ-
In truth I say to you: he who utters words of wisdom and he who hears them are partners, and the one more worthy of being called wise is he who practices wisdom. In truth I say to you, if you were to find a lamp lit with tar on a dark night, you would make use of its light, not withstanding the evil-smelling tar. So also should you take wisdom from whoever you find possessing it.
Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=pE57rm ... t.&f=false
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Karma Dorje »

Heruka wrote: and this is supposed to stop any logical line of reason and inquiry? Do i simply accept you seeing mahasiddhas mostly everywhere you look as a reality because you affirm it is that way so as to not offend you? Your own admission is that it is a faith based arrived at idea you cherrish, and that realization in no way due to good merit or behaviour, ethics or morality.....which is just bizzare in terms of the buddhas teaching would you not agree?
It's entirely up to you what you accept. We have been blessed with the likes of Dudjom Rinpoche, Chatral Rinpoche, Penor Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Kalu Rinpoche, Karmapa XVI, etc. If you do not see them as mahasiddhas, nothing I can say will convince you. I can assure you I will not be offended by a mere difference of opinion expressed in respectful terms.

Now as for your understanding of my terms, you are mistaken. When I say faith, I mean confidence (which is much closer to the Sanskrit term shraddha than what the term has come to mean in modern parlance). I have confidence that Trungpa Rinpoche was realized both from my own experiences in places he has been and the teachings I have received from his lineage from my tsawai lama. His behaviour in a conventional sense is simply irrelevant to me in that context. No lama I have ever spoken to has denied that he was realized. Not a single one.

When I say realization has nothing to do with morality that is to say that morality does not *produce* understanding of emptiness. It may lessen agitation and clear away gross confusion, but it does not produce wisdom. Morality may indeed have a lot to do with manifesting qualities, but that was not the specific context I was speaking to. I am certainly not suggesting that anyone should abandon the noble Eightfold Path, dispense with the Three Vows, etc. or saying that they are unnecessary to provide conducive circumstances for practice, clear away gross confusion and provide temporary sustenance and protection to sentient beings. Let's be clear here that wisdom is not a produced thing, hence is not dependent on compounded actions.

"I am not a follower of Trungpa. I am not looking to excuse his behaviour"
While I have received some teachings that came from him, I have never been part of his organization nor received teachings directly from him. I feel no need to justify anything but as I said earlier on this thread, talking about this issue openly and without rancour can be of service to those who are not familiar with the entire context of his actions and teachings.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Karma Dorje »

Heruka wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote: I am not Kagyu either but I assure you that I get it quite well thank you very much and there is no duplicity involved. Perhaps we can stick to discussing the points and leave the ad hominem attacks out of it.
Last edited by Karma Dorje on Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Heruka
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Heruka »

Karma Dorje wrote: We have been blessed with the likes of .......
we?


Now as for your understanding of my terms, you are mistaken.

simple word craft.
When I say realization has nothing to do with morality that is to say that morality does not *produce* understanding of emptiness.
are you saying realization of shunyata is an understanding....emptiness is a proper object of analysis?
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Heruka »

[quote="Karma Dorje]

If it's of any concern to you, my refuge name........[/quote]


actually it is of no importance to me, nor is your shopping list of "high lamas".

Karma is general prefix to karma kagyu students refuge names is all.
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Karma Dorje »

Heruka wrote: actually it is of no importance to me, nor is your shopping list of "high lamas".
Karma is general prefix to karma kagyu students refuge names is all.
The more this discussion goes on, the closer I get to Silentbob's initial response that it probably is best not to feed Internet trolls. That's not a shopping list, that's a list of many examples of mahasiddhas in this day and age. As it seems you really aren't interested in a polite discussion in good faith, I don't see much point in continuing this discussion with you.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
Heruka
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Heruka »

fight or flight?
Heruka
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Heruka »

Karma Dorje wrote:
Heruka wrote: actually it is of no importance to me, nor is your shopping list of "high lamas".
Karma is general prefix to karma kagyu students refuge names is all.
As it seems you really aren't interested in a polite discussion in good faith, I don't see much point in continuing this discussion with you.
interesting that you think that you hold center ground and can frame the discussion, you have made the topic about personalities when in the interest of topic at hand and the rumours of drug use, you have gone out of your way to make it about you.

very intersting.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Heruka »

u
Karma Dorje wrote: That's not a shopping list, that's a list of many examples of mahasiddhas in this day and age.

you thought name dropping was going to impress me as an appeal to authority, and the discussion was going to shrink?

Go ask Chatral Rinpoche if he thinks he is a mahasiddha?
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Karma Dorje »

Heruka wrote:u
Karma Dorje wrote: That's not a shopping list, that's a list of many examples of mahasiddhas in this day and age.
you thought name dropping was going to impress me as an appeal to authority, and the discussion was going to shrink?

Go ask Chatral Rinpoche if he thinks he is a mahasiddha?
Respectfully, this is not about name-dropping. I have not had the good fortune to meet most of the lamas on said list. They are modern *examples* of mahasiddhas that very few would indict for controversy. If you think that the mahasiddhas only lived in the hoary past, rather than in an unbroken stream of accomplished yogis to this day then that is unfortunate but hardly concerning to me.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Karma Dorje »

[quote="Heruka]fight or flight[/quote]

Neither. If you are not interested in keeping to the bounds of a polite conversation without vituperation, what can I say? I expect the same level of discourse from Internet interlocutors that I do in person. If we as Buddhists can't be kind and respectful of each other while disagreeing about matters which we both have good faith views of, what exactly have we been practicing all these years?
Heruka wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
Heruka wrote: actually it is of no importance to me, nor is your shopping list of "high lamas".
Karma is general prefix to karma kagyu students refuge names is all.
As it seems you really aren't interested in a polite discussion in good faith, I don't see much point in continuing this discussion with you.
interesting that you think that you hold center ground and can frame the discussion, you have made the topic about personalities when in the interest of topic at hand and the rumours of drug use, you have gone out of your way to make it about you.

very intersting.
The topic is not about me, nor have I made it about me. What it really seems to be about is your desire to bludgeon those who disagree with you. Not interested. I've been called worse things by better people.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
Heruka
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Heruka »

its called nilhisim and moral relativism.

its not about whether you agree with me or not, but is it inline with the buddhas teachings. You have not presented an clear argument that it is. You keep hiding behind all manners of smoke and mirrors, but have not answered that central issue.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by MalaBeads »

Heruka wrote:
"well now heres a fine thing, KD the romantic magical thinking brings us this throw away sound bite idea, and is often parroted through the conservitive orthodox dharmic mother churches, it is how monks excuse their poor behaviour in terms of their tantric views, which in itself is where most conflict and argument arises, not on any sutric level, but in tantric view. Mahasiddhas are like unicorns, they are present in lore, but in reality..no, there are none. Its interesting to note that the ancient greeks when acting out a play would hide behind masks, there was a real understanding that it was a subtifuge, an act, to enter into the reflective mirror like (enter Tain ment) and its purpose was not to draw the crowd into the idea that it was real, or lose themselves in a role, that would be dishonest and deceptive. These days the whole act of playing a part is reversed, it is to draw you into the reflections, to decieve and make the fake seem real, with no mask at all. Only victims make excuses for the deception of the abused, any (real?) mahasiddha would mess you up in a (real?) way, there is no benefit in that, only harm can come from harm, and that is living in multi reflections, and more confused and deeper one sinks into fantasy and dreams. not very enlightening."

I think you understand the situation quite well.

But I would like to turn the conversation slightly to your mention of 'the last temptation of christ.' I saw it many years ago and could not understand what all the fuss was about. Now, thinking back, it's clearer. Mr Scorcese was not giving people what they wanted. What people want is elevated figures in robes, not authentic portraits of humans. People want gods, not humans. That way they can turn their attention away from who they actually are to an idealized figure. Which is exactly what Mr. Scorcese did not give them and (bringing the topic back round) whatTrungpa did give his students.

If Trungpa taught anything, he taught what it was to be an authentic human being. He never asked people to do what he did. He never said,"this is the way". Instead he showed them how to be authentic. He did not romanticize religion, or life foMr that matter. He gave them a portrait of reality and this was, imo, step one. Be authentic. Know thyself. Start there. Drop all the fanciful, idealized pictures of not only religion, enlightenment but also of idealized human behavior. As his student Pema really understood, Start Where You Are. Unfortunately, his message only got through to a few. But that may be enough because we still have his teachings, and being an optimist, I think it's never too late.

Btw, I think it's no mistake that his most successful student is Pema Chodron who is a nun who keeps the precepts. She really understood what he was about - which was - now get this - authenticity. Pema embodies, very successfully, step two: no harming. She has done this within the vehicle of being a nun who has kept the precepts. I am not suggesting that everyone needs to follow this route. She's done it. But I will say this: it is a step by step process - it's just that trungpa REALLY UNDERSTOOD what steps we as Westerners needed to take. Step one: Be authentic. Step two: Do no harm. Step three: Be in society. Step four? Step four is the result. A transformed world. Anyhoooo.....this is how I understand Trungpa. And I will add one more comment and then stop. Most practioners have not even completed step one.

Thanks for provoking some contemplation on my part.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Chaz »

Heruka wrote:Karma is general prefix to karma kagyu students refuge names is all.

Funny that. I study/practice in the Karma Kagyu lineage. Niether my Refuge name or the name I recieved when I took Bodhisattva vows has the word "Karma" in it. No one I know personally has "Karma" in their names, either.

I feel ........... cheated. :tantrum:
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by catmoon »

By the powers invested in me by... well... me, I dub thee Karma Chaz. Bear this name humbly, and do not let it distract you from the path.

Arise, Karma Chaz!
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Heruka »

i beleive it comes from the indian caste system, someone named karma would belong to the untouchables in that caste system.

So i understand, but it is subject to change.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by Heruka »

MalaBeads wrote: Thanks for provoking some contemplation on my part.
:cheers: that is the whole point, faith was strengthend, now lets go for a beer!
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by conebeckham »

Chaz wrote:
Heruka wrote:Karma is general prefix to karma kagyu students refuge names is all.

Funny that. I study/practice in the Karma Kagyu lineage. Niether my Refuge name or the name I recieved when I took Bodhisattva vows has the word "Karma" in it. No one I know personally has "Karma" in their names, either.

I feel ........... cheated. :tantrum:

Sometimes Lamas leave the "Karma" prefix off, but I'd bet it's implied.
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It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom" & the Steinbecks

Post by MalaBeads »

:cheers:

Yer on.......
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