Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Silent Bob » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:12 am

Or as Trungpa Rinpoche said, "Let us mind our own zafus".
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby heart » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:02 am

Caz wrote:Buddha taught the path of morale discipline this applies to both Sutra and Tantra you keep appropriate behaviour to benefit others and help them develop faith in the teacher and the Dharma if the teacher engages in what appears to be degenerate activity regardless of their intention it doesnt come off well. Buddha would not approve.


Caz,

I am afraid that it is a basic Mahayana principle that intention is more important than convention.

/magnus
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:08 am

conebeckham wrote:The teacher who subverts conventions, and astounds expectations, can be the best teacher for certain people in certain situations.

Trungpa, in my opinion, was one of those teachers.

Ethics and morality are important for oneself, and as guides for relations with others, sure. We should try our best, though, not to use them as yardsticks to measure others, but ourselves. As Buddhists, we should all know that things are not what they seem--the drunken master may be the genuine master, while the celibate monk in robes may in actuality be the demon.


Pabongka is a case in point. I'll go with the drunken philanderer over the puritanical zealot every time. Less people get hurt and there are no schisms in the sangha.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Caz » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:36 am

heart wrote:
Caz wrote:Buddha taught the path of morale discipline this applies to both Sutra and Tantra you keep appropriate behaviour to benefit others and help them develop faith in the teacher and the Dharma if the teacher engages in what appears to be degenerate activity regardless of their intention it doesnt come off well. Buddha would not approve.


Caz,

I am afraid that it is a basic Mahayana principle that intention is more important than convention.

/magnus


True although I wouldnt abandon acting according to convention either. It can make things look odd. :rolleye:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Caz » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:37 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
conebeckham wrote:The teacher who subverts conventions, and astounds expectations, can be the best teacher for certain people in certain situations.

Trungpa, in my opinion, was one of those teachers.

Ethics and morality are important for oneself, and as guides for relations with others, sure. We should try our best, though, not to use them as yardsticks to measure others, but ourselves. As Buddhists, we should all know that things are not what they seem--the drunken master may be the genuine master, while the celibate monk in robes may in actuality be the demon.


Pabongka is a case in point. I'll go with the drunken philanderer over the puritanical zealot every time. Less people get hurt and there are no schisms in the sangha.


I guess the case is fairly clear that more people prefer the druken Philanderer to one whom keeps their vows. :popcorn:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby catmoon » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:46 am

Caz wrote:I guess the case is fairly clear that more people prefer the druken Philanderer to one whom keeps their vows. :popcorn:



How do you know Pabongka kept his vows?
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:58 am

catmoon wrote:
Caz wrote:I guess the case is fairly clear that more people prefer the druken Philanderer to one whom keeps their vows. :popcorn:



How do you know Pabongka kept his vows?


Moreover, Vajrayana dharma is subtle. How do you know Trungpa broke his?
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby catmoon » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:02 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
catmoon wrote:
Caz wrote:I guess the case is fairly clear that more people prefer the druken Philanderer to one whom keeps their vows. :popcorn:



How do you know Pabongka kept his vows?


Moreover, Vajrayana dharma is subtle. How do you know Trungpa broke his?

Oooo good one! :popcorn:
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby heart » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:14 am

Caz wrote:
heart wrote:
Caz wrote:Buddha taught the path of morale discipline this applies to both Sutra and Tantra you keep appropriate behaviour to benefit others and help them develop faith in the teacher and the Dharma if the teacher engages in what appears to be degenerate activity regardless of their intention it doesnt come off well. Buddha would not approve.


Caz,

I am afraid that it is a basic Mahayana principle that intention is more important than convention.

/magnus


True although I wouldnt abandon acting according to convention either. It can make things look odd. :rolleye:


I think that from a Buddhas perspective convention looks odd. In fact, Buddha did not follow the convention of his family or of spiritual practitioners of his time nor as the founder of a religion. Lucky for us he wasn't to conventional, don't you think?

/magnus
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:46 pm

Food_Eatah wrote:Now, no one here has been in the same room with the Buddha. Yet where are all the scandals involving him?


You don't think the brahmins were scandalized by anatman?
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:59 pm

catmoon wrote:
Caz wrote:I guess the case is fairly clear that more people prefer the druken Philanderer to one whom keeps their vows. :popcorn:


How do you know Pabongka kept his vows?

I don't like where this is going. See this is the reason we should all just take it easy and try not to point any fingers at anybody else's teachers. Let's just be strong vajra brothers and sisters all together koo koo kajoob, mkay?

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.
Pabongka Rinpoche, Liberation in the palm of your hand: A concise discourse on the path to enlightenment (2006). Boston: Wisdom Publications, p. 137
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby conebeckham » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:00 pm

I think it takes a special teacher, a special student, and special circumstances, for "crazy wisdom activity."

It's my feeling, as an ignorant, judgemental sentient being, that many students who gravitate towards the "crazy" side are actually in need of a more precise ethical framework. And many students who seem to be living according to a precise ethical framework are actually "really" crazy--and either act out in secret, or develop a whole set of pathological issues. Having said that, I have met, and known well, people I feel are very pure monks, as well as great teachers who appear to have "bent rules."

Trungpa dressed his folks in suits and ties. He created a disciplined cadre of "guards." He stressed samatha meditation, and was quite strict about following a graduated path of Vajrayana practice, completing ngondro, etc. When he took control of his budding community in Boulder, he had the hippies burn all the weed, as told in another thread around here.

Those are all examples of "Crazy Wisdom," by the way. :smile:
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Chaz » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:22 pm

Caz wrote:I guess the case is fairly clear that more people prefer the druken Philanderer to one whom keeps their vows. :popcorn:



A drunken philanderer is at least honest in his shortcomings as they are plain for the world to see. Puritans just plain suck.

If we are going to hold CTR to a certain standard then others must be heal to a similar standard.

Starting with the Buddha.

Let's see ..... he abandoned his wife a newborn son (after naming him "Fetter") and snuck out in the middle of the night. Of course that isn't drunken philandering and but abandoning one's wife and child generally qualifies that person as Scum of the Earth. When he was first approached to ordain women the Buddha refused and aquiessed only after persistent entreaties by Ananda. I don't know about you, Caz, but where I'm from that's called Chauvanism. It's something else that usually qualifies someone as Scum Of The Earth.

It's not that I thing the Blessed one is was Scum Of The Earth, but if you're going to condemn CTR for his ....... eccentricities .... then that same standard must be, if we are to be fair, applied all around. Even the Buddha should not be excused from such scrutiny. I've heard excuses for the Buddha's behavior towards his wife and child and attitude towards the ordination of women made a dozen different ways. Every excuse is meant to be understood and accepted. yet, we take exception for teachers like CTR, who was, after all, acting within the accepted bounds of the culture of the time. No excuses allowed. People are so filled with righteous indignation that they won't even read works of Pure Genius because of their puritanical condemnation of the man's "extra-curricular activities".

It's easy to judge another who we don't approve of. Too easy, actually. We tend to be arbitrary when we should be fair, and we are all too quick to pass judgement without any sort prior self-appraisal.

For myself, I'm no better than CTR when it comes to faithfulness or restraint and perhaps even worse. I'm in no position to throw stones, cast aspursions, or pass judgement on him or anyone for that matter. In fact, I don't think there is a single person on this board with the chops to put down the Vidyadhara Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. No one. Not one. :jawdrop:

I find disussion with tone like this one to be petty, nonsensical, self-righteous, self-agrandizing, ego-driven bullshit.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Silent Bob » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:55 pm

You left out "tiresome" and "uninformed".
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Chaz » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:19 pm

Silent Bob wrote:You left out "tiresome" and "uninformed".



DAMMIT!!!! I knew I forgot something :oops: .
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Greg » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:25 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.

Chris


Game. Set. Match.


That's an oversimplification. "Vocal condemnation" is one thing, but there have been a few of his students, close and not so close, who have written books expressing both admiration and deep misgivings. Everyone knows about the open boozing, but it would seem that there was also much that was kept hidden from both the community and public at large - the coke habit, for instance.

I am not saying he was a saint or a charlatan, all I am saying is, knee jerk reactions either way are not helpful.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Greg » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:27 pm

Jnana wrote:
Caz wrote:I dont think he infected his students with HIV.

Neither did Trungpa.

:focus:


He was never accused of doing so by anyone. You seem to be confusing him with his successor, Osel Tendzin aka Tom Rich. Which is not to say he bears no responsibility for Rich's behavior, of which he seems to have been aware.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:57 pm

Chaz wrote:I find disussion with tone like this one to be petty, nonsensical, self-righteous, self-agrandizing, ego-driven bullshit.


I sometimes wonder if he didn't act that way precisely to draw out people's prideful behavior. If not specifically to do that, it sure does work a treat nonetheless.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Chaz » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:14 pm

Greg wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.

Chris


Game. Set. Match.


That's an oversimplification. "Vocal condemnation" is one thing, but there have been a few of his students, close and not so close, who have written books expressing both admiration and deep misgivings. Everyone knows about the open boozing, but it would seem that there was also much that was kept hidden from both the community and public at large - the coke habit, for instance.

I am not saying he was a saint or a charlatan, all I am saying is, knee jerk reactions either way are not helpful.


What coke habit is that?
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Chaz » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:39 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Chaz wrote:I find disussion with tone like this one to be petty, nonsensical, self-righteous, self-agrandizing, ego-driven bullshit.


I sometimes wonder if he didn't act that way precisely to draw out people's prideful behavior. If not specifically to do that, it sure does work a treat nonetheless.


I always thought he was a product of time and place. I think he was influenced by his students as much as he influenced them. You go from a lifetime in Tibet as a monastic to the US of the early 70s in the space of a few years , it was bound to have some effect. Especially when you're talking about the US as was exemplified by Boulder, CO.

Drugs, sex and rock and roll.

It must have been total culture shock.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that things turned out the way they did.
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