Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

[Jnana]

I dont think he infected his students with HIV.

Neither did Trungpa.

[Caz]

I dont think he infected his students with HIV.

Neither did Trungpa.

Certainly not the implication was that his actions set the ground for more " Crazy " Behaviour where as a teacher practicing morale discipline would have had less chance of such happening and there would be no justification for its happening either.

[Jnana]

Certainly not the implication was that his actions set the ground for more " Crazy " Behaviour where as a teacher practicing morale discipline would have had less chance of such happening and there would be no justification for its happening either.

Yes, quite likely.

For what it's worth I don't condone that type of conduct either. I generally only support conservative, mainstream Buddhist orthopraxy. In fact, two of my teachers were students of CTR, and both became and remain fully ordained monastics.

All the best,

Geoff

[maybay]

Crazy wisdom doesnt look good for practising Buddhists,

i agree, from my perspective its not a very good read, most of trungpas collected teachings are not that clear or useful to students.

Cant say Ive ever read his books but generally I dont pick up works by people who dont keep appropriate morale discipline.

But you discuss them all the same, and yet what is there to discuss? His actions were clear as daylight.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

It isn't a good idea to critique a teacher's actions as "crazy" or otherwise until we have some tiny inkling about emptiness ourselves.

It isn't exactly a normal world out there.

[maybay]

something clearly needed at some particular time and space, but not universally applicable.

Trungpa Rinpoche taught fearlessness. What is more applicable than that?

[Silent Bob]

I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.

Chris

[Virgo]

Look how disturbed peoples minds get when there is the slightest hint that a great master drank alcohol or some other such thing. Clearly an indication that your disturbing emotions have not bee relieved.

Alchohol and sex. For some people this is part and parcel of tantra. What some others can't grasp though is that you only do it when natural, you don't try to go out and live like a Rock Star.
Kevin

[Jinzang]

I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.

Exactly.

[Karma Dorje]

I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.

Chris

Game. Set. Match.

[Caz]

Buddha taught the path of morale discipline this applies to both Sutra and Tantra you keep appropriate behaviour to benefit others and help them develop faith in the teacher and the Dharma if the teacher engages in what appears to be degenerate activity regardless of their intention it doesnt come off well. Buddha would not approve.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Emptiness is not a bunny wabbit. It's not supposed to be "nice".

[Thug4lyfe]

Now, no one here has been in the same room with the Buddha. Yet where are all the scandals involving him?

[Chaz]

Now, no one here has been in the same room with the Buddha. Yet where are all the scandals involving him?

We don't know. None of us were there. Were you?

[Caz]

You work with convention to benefit others not against it.

[Pero]

Buddha taught the path of morale discipline this applies to both Sutra and Tantra you keep appropriate behaviour to benefit others and help them develop faith in the teacher and the Dharma. If the teacher engages in what appears to be degenerate activity regardless of their intention it doesnt come off well. Buddha would not approve.

nor do I have the insight to see what is actually benefical

You certainly assume much for someone without insight into what is beneficial.

Anyway, I remember someone on E-Sangha in a topic on Trungpa saying something like "Everyone wants to meet a mahasiddha. Then one comes along and decades later people still talk about the scandals."
Personally I have the feeling that CTR was perfect for that time. He (or more correctly his behaviour I suppose) probably wouldn't do so well in our time though.

[Virgo]

Buddha would not approve.

It doesn't matter if it puts some people off. Tantra is for the minority, not the majority.

Eating food, drinking alcohol from a cup (I won't say made of what) and having sex are actually part of the practice on the lunar feast day festivals and so forth.

Except in Tibet, it was mostly done is monasteries so the sex was curtailed, at a loss to the tantrikas, of course.

Remember, Buddhism is from India, not Tibet. A lot of Tibetan masters gained realization and did great things for Buddhism. Some screwed it up to a degree also.

Most of the teachings I follow come from people that acted crazy because of realization or made themselves appear to be crazy for various reasons. Padmasambhava, Tsasum Lingpa, Vasabhandu, etc. So there is no fault.

If my Gurus drank alcohol, or did anything else like that, I wouldn't really mind, at all.

Kevin

[Malcolm]

Now, no one here has been in the same room with the Buddha. Yet where are all the scandals involving him?

Well, there was the girl who accused the Buddha of getting her pregnant for a starters....

[Malcolm]

You work with convention to benefit others not against it.

Tell that to Tilopa.

[conebeckham]

The teacher who subverts conventions, and astounds expectations, can be the best teacher for certain people in certain situations.

Trungpa, in my opinion, was one of those teachers.

Ethics and morality are important for oneself, and as guides for relations with others, sure. We should try our best, though, not to use them as yardsticks to measure others, but ourselves. As Buddhists, we should all know that things are not what they seem--the drunken master may be the genuine master, while the celibate monk in robes may in actuality be the demon.