Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Post by Virgo »

5heaps wrote:
Virgo wrote:It is held on a concept and while the concept is there, it is not the same as the thing it represents.
but, there is no thing that it represents. it is just a deluded synthesis imputed onto minute parts, and the more the concentration builds the greater the absorption on the delusion.
As far as I know, that's right, yes.
5heaps wrote:you dont want to agree that clairvoyances are inferences.. you should want to say that just because a mental image is involved, this does not necessitate that the cognition is an inference (it only necessitates that it is conceptual..not all conceptual cognitions are inferential cognitions)
Consciousness can know an object that is not a concept, and does frequently, but not during [moments of] shamatha.

Kevin
5heaps
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:09 am

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Post by 5heaps »

Virgo wrote:
5heaps wrote:
Virgo wrote:It is held on a concept and while the concept is there, it is not the same as the thing it represents.
but, there is no thing that it represents. it is just a deluded synthesis imputed onto minute parts, and the more the concentration builds the greater the absorption on the delusion.
As far as I know, that's right, yes.
in other words, the more sophisticated the concentration becomes, the greater the increase in delusion. yes, that makes good sense.. :thinking:
or, as more insight is gained through traversing the dhyanas, the more refined does ones delusion become. yes, that makes good sense.. :thinking:

i would be much more comfortable in accepting that gross objects are not just conceptual, that they do actually exist and function
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Post by Virgo »

5heaps wrote: in other words, the more sophisticated the concentration becomes, the greater the increase in delusion. yes, that makes good sense.. :thinking:
or, as more insight is gained through traversing the dhyanas, the more refined does ones delusion become. yes, that makes good sense.. :thinking:

i would be much more comfortable in accepting that gross objects are not just conceptual, that they do actually exist and function
Samatha never removes delusion.

Concepts do function on one level. In fact without concepts we can't gain wisdom. Why? concepts approximate reality. The closer our approximations become, the closer we become to being free of conceptions. For example, if you wanted to practice Hinayana, you would need clear conceptual understanding of things before you could go beyond only apprehending "impermanence" and so forth, conceptually. The more facts you knew about dharmas, the more wisdom that removes delusion could occur on an experiential level.

Kevin
deepbluehum
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Post by deepbluehum »

Readers at this point are recommended to read the third volume of Tsonkhapa's Lam Rim Chen Mo, and also to follow that up with Berzin's description of Gelukpa's explanation of tantra. These documents do well to clarify what sort of mind can realize the nature of phenomena and the nature of mind at the same time.
5heaps
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:09 am

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Post by 5heaps »

Virgo wrote:Concepts do function on one level. In fact without concepts we can't gain wisdom. Why? concepts approximate reality.
again, for you and Namdrol the object of focus is a mental concept. there is no underlying 'whole object' held by dhyana, there is just the image imputed onto parts. thats the object.

however, the factor necessary for a conceptual consciousness (mental imaging) is shut down in the advanced dhyanas, so the question then becomes 'in what way can this mind be considered conceptual'. furthermore how can you even hold a conceptual object without a conceptual consciousness? i think what hes saying is impossible. if its true that the object during dhyana is conceptual, then the mental consciousness is necessarily using a mental image (which contradicts the idea that advanced dhyanas are free of mental images)

i'm still wondering what Namdrol means when he says "diffuse conceptual mind" as opposed to just conceptual mind
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Post by Virgo »

5heaps wrote:(which contradicts the idea that advanced dhyanas are free of mental images)
Which dhyanas? Supramundane? As far as I know supramundane dhyanas are non-conceptual but all mundane ones are conceptual. But you would have to ask Namdrol.

Namdrol is an expert on the Kosa. I am not an expert on anything.

Kevin
BuddhaFollower
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Post by BuddhaFollower »

Why isn't karmamudra more openly taught to westerners who have already received HYT with the 4 empowerments?

Westerners are already having sex. Might as well put it too good use. :shrug:
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.
User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

BuddhaFollower wrote:Why isn't karmamudra more openly taught to westerners who have already received HYT with the 4 empowerments?

Westerners are already having sex. Might as well put it too good use. :shrug:
I've always taken it that karmamudra requires a high level of practice so it will require a close relationship with the guru so they know exactly what level of practice you are at.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
MiphamFan
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Post by MiphamFan »

BuddhaFollower wrote:Why isn't karmamudra more openly taught to westerners who have already received HYT with the 4 empowerments?

Westerners are already having sex. Might as well put it too good use. :shrug:
Gurus teach the yoga of passion to make use of ordinary sex. This is not karmamudra. Malcolm said it before.

Karmamudra means you need to at a minimum master gtum-mo too.
fckw
Posts: 821
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 am

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Post by fckw »

Most people who talk about Karmamudra have actually never even attempted to practice it. This includes a significant number of Vajrayana teachers (especially the monastic ones), both Western and Eastern. So, essentially, most of what is being said about Karmamudra is hear-say.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”