Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Indrajala
Posts: 6312
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:01 pm

Vesna A. Wallace in her work The Inner Kālacakratantra A Buddhist Tantric View of the Individual states, "The generation of sexual bliss without emission of regenerative fluids is regarded in this tantra as the most direct method of generating the mental bliss that refines the mind by diminishing conceptualizations and thus makes it fit for realization of the empty nature of phenomena."

Nāgārjuna in his Letter to a Friend states the following.

"There can be no dhyāna without wisdom;
There can be no wisdom without dhyāna.
He who has both reduces the ocean of existence,
To the size of an ox's hoofprint."

In my estimation the principle is the same in both systems: the mental stamina generated through meditation allows one to realize wisdom of emptiness.

But why in Vajrayāna would tantric bliss be considered superior to the bliss of dhyāna?
tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:49 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Indrajala
Posts: 6312
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Indrajala » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:18 am

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:55 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Indrajala
Posts: 6312
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Indrajala » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:20 am

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:57 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Indrajala
Posts: 6312
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Indrajala » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:46 am

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

User avatar
ronnewmexico
Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:54 am

Hmmm

Feel free to advise me this is off topic and I will delete content. It appears related to me, but I am biased, and uneducated.

A self stimulation can occur through the useage of conceptual formation. A average sex act involves the same.
I would assume the use of a consort would embody the conceptual formation of reference enableing the use of the act without the concept formation.
Essentially the consort serves as the concept in action. The object of a sort which is as such concept the aware thing.
Whereas the aware thing established then thusly assumes its identity the perceiver as the empty thing.

So....we then have the unity of awareness in act with us the perceiver as the empty aspect realized.

SEx without concept is what it would amount to.
The feeling of consequence then being solely percived as empty aspect, a result of the union of empty and aware which is as things really are as opposed to thought of....

so it seems that is what it would approximate. As a matter of speculation..I have never engaged this thing nor intend to.
Bliss it would seem in this eventuality a understanding of things as they really are in this particular aspect. Emptiness realized so to speak..

I would speculate it would require a highly evolved spiritual practice for one to engage such a thing with only exterior concept considered as such..if that is what this thing is, with consort. Concort representing concept which represents or becomes aware aspect, joined with empty concept which becomes empty aspect producing in such union.....directly perceived bliss of emptiness.

Or is this wrong? Leaving aside the necessary adjunts to this, prepratory practices and work with the channels to enable the direct seeing.
I have never considered this, so I ask.

If my thinking on this was correct...a consort a physical concort would be a absolute requirement for completion of the tantric act.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Tenzin1
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:36 am

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Tenzin1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:29 am


User avatar
ronnewmexico
Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:36 am

I don't know tenzin..but I'd suspect a physical consort is absolutely necessary for the realization of that tantric practice which performed correctly would bring a great spiritual advancement I suppose, but would personally fall short of saying that is the only or one way,

Just a personal opinion so feel free to take it with a grain of salt. A effective utilization of the tools that lie before us as I see it but other tools may be found.

Sometimes what HHDL says is not what he writes, so I often check to see what is specifically officiallly written to determine his specific intent.
He is quite complex and seemingly is his way of communication benefiting a complex person. The most complex perhaps.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Jnana
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Jnana » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:52 pm


User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6615
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Astus » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:43 pm

Vitarka and vicāra don't exist in the 2nd dhyāna already, how could then it be called conceptual? Nirvikalpa-jñāna also exists in common Mahayana.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Enochian
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Enochian » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:44 pm

Which is higher?

Clear Light of Sleep OR the fourth Jhana where the divya caksus is accessed?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.

User avatar
Indrajala
Posts: 6312
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Indrajala » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:52 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

User avatar
ronnewmexico
Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:34 pm

To engage in this particular practice one must as I have actually seen in writing by HHDL have already accomplished one flavor.
So one is already fairly well accomplished in things of the spiritual. The particular claims on this issue by my take...nonsense in these corrupted times. Particularly in regards to the unusual perspective on sex found in modern culture such a practice to my opinion is doomed to failure. And no...this cannot normally be performed without consort so a monk in the tradition this is found cannot commonly perform it. WE cannot seperate the tantra from the context of its performance. Tantric accomplishment through sex...mostly a pipedream to my opinion. Another corruption that is pervasive everywhere in every manner shape and form.

On the other hand I can very well see the application of tantra that may use means before us as opportunity such as death and tantra related to death as efficient expedious means for purpose. Death is never very far away at all, and I expect in other traditions it may be utilzed but not directly.So if I had my druthers I would advocate for tantra of death as means. And to what negative effect to direct one study in one way and another in another as preparation for death as addition..I see no negative eventuality. That would be simply entering a thing prepared which is always a good thing to do.

That is but one example but others may have other preference. If I were to combine two traditions I would advocate it in that manner.
But I am a layperson with little understanding so feel free to disregard.

For me...there is a great problem. There is determination and forebearence which we must have to attempt enlightenment within this lifetime, which we must certainly have. On the other hand there is identificaton with this lifetime and the subtle influcence of self which persists and may incline me to think...enlightenment must occur in this lifetime..which is a egoism.....so it is a fine line to be drawn between the two.

In that light...death as means makes most sense, for me. And what progress I can make in these corrupted times. And why should I not study and utilize what is out there....why not, I have no fear. As life is as death....suchly I advocate.... :smile:
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6615
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Astus » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:50 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Jnana
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Jnana » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:46 pm


Jnana
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Jnana » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:38 pm


User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:18 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:19 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa


Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests