Monks can't get full enlightenment?

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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby gnegirl » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:06 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:We won't really be working towards benefiting all sentient beings by slinging mud at each other.

Let us keep the conversation for the sake of learning, and discussing ideas, with healthy debates. The coarse language, and clashes really benefit no one.


ok, no mud...

How about a nice Warrior Dash??
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Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:25 am

Je Tsongkhapa taught an oral lineage tradition that explains how to attain enlightenment without having to rely on an action mudra, so monks and nuns can get enlightened. Je Tsongkhapa himself waited until death and attained enlightenment in the bardo - or rather, there was no bardo, he went straight to enlightenment by transforming the clear light of death.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:34 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:Je Tsongkhapa taught an oral lineage tradition that explains how to attain enlightenment without having to rely on an action mudra, so monks and nuns can get enlightened. Je Tsongkhapa himself waited until death and attained enlightenment in the bardo - or rather, there was no bardo, he went straight to enlightenment by transforming the clear light of death.


Typically, those who do not practice karmamudra in the tantra path will rely on this method.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:47 am

I hadn't realized that this was such a big deal for some people on this board. Full enlightenment in this lifetime (meaning before death) is a pretty lofty goal. How many people attain that goal before they die? Not very many. So some people are actually saying that they'd stay away from tantra due to the very existence of a practice that they are most unlikely to do in this lifetime? It doesn't make much sense.

The lineage traditions state that many, perhaps most of the illustrious Vajrayana masters did not attain full enlightenment in this body and were variously on the bhumis.

Since on the lower bhumis a person can't be distinguished from a Buddha then it's almost as accurate to say that yes indeed monks and nuns can get full enlightenment because they certainly could attain a bhumi in this lifetime.

Kirt
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Vajrahridaya » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:58 am

Jñāna wrote:
adinatha wrote:You are a dogmatist is all.

There's nothing "dogmatic" about it. In comparison to the non-carnal joy (prīti) and pleasure (sukha) of meditative equipoise, even the most ecstatic sensual pleasure is gross -- a violent psychosomatic seizure. A yogī who's sufficiently developed the former has no use for the latter.

All the best,

Geoff


Because you have no capacity to understand the power and practice of Tantra, doesn't mean your subjective opinion holds light.

Because you lack direct experience of tantras fruit, you poison your own mind with baseless assumptions.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Vajrahridaya » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:03 am

padma norbu wrote:Sorry, I don't believe it. At best it's pure imagination. Nobody is sucking vaginal fluid in their peehole and sending it up to their head and back down to their heart. You might as well try to tell me that by force of will you can squeeze shit from your lower intestine out your nostrils.


It's about the energy. Having experienced this power directly I can attest to the power of karmamudra.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:47 am

Vajrahridaya wrote:
Jñāna wrote:
adinatha wrote:You are a dogmatist is all.

There's nothing "dogmatic" about it. In comparison to the non-carnal joy (prīti) and pleasure (sukha) of meditative equipoise, even the most ecstatic sensual pleasure is gross -- a violent psychosomatic seizure. A yogī who's sufficiently developed the former has no use for the latter.


Because you have no capacity to understand the power and practice of Tantra, doesn't mean your subjective opinion holds light.

Because you lack direct experience of tantras fruit, you poison your own mind with baseless assumptions.

Looks like you're the one making baseless assumptions. It's quite hilarious when people like yourself assume that anyone who disagrees with you must lack capacity or not be a vajrayāna practitioner. Sorry, but you have no capacity to excommunicate me or anyone else.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:01 am

kirtu wrote:I hadn't realized that this was such a big deal for some people on this board. Full enlightenment in this lifetime (meaning before death) is a pretty lofty goal. How many people attain that goal before they die? Not very many. So some people are actually saying that they'd stay away from tantra due to the very existence of a practice that they are most unlikely to do in this lifetime? It doesn't make much sense.

The lineage traditions state that many, perhaps most of the illustrious Vajrayana masters did not attain full enlightenment in this body and were variously on the bhumis.

Since on the lower bhumis a person can't be distinguished from a Buddha then it's almost as accurate to say that yes indeed monks and nuns can get full enlightenment because they certainly could attain a bhumi in this lifetime.

Kirt

Couldn't have been better said.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:04 am

Jñāna wrote:
Vajrahridaya wrote:
Jñāna wrote:There's nothing "dogmatic" about it. In comparison to the non-carnal joy (prīti) and pleasure (sukha) of meditative equipoise, even the most ecstatic sensual pleasure is gross -- a violent psychosomatic seizure. A yogī who's sufficiently developed the former has no use for the latter.


Because you have no capacity to understand the power and practice of Tantra, doesn't mean your subjective opinion holds light.

Because you lack direct experience of tantras fruit, you poison your own mind with baseless assumptions.

Looks like you're the one making baseless assumptions. It's quite hilarious when people like yourself assume that anyone who disagrees with you must lack capacity or not be a vajrayāna practitioner. Sorry, but you have no capacity to excommunicate me or anyone else.

All the best,

Geoff


In Vajrayana, capacity means interest and participation. Because you have neither, you do not have the capacity to practice Vajrayana. Basically, it doesn't resonate with you. But wait, you have some interest don't you. Still poking around here. Vajrayana has powerful methods. Like Dzogchen also have very very powerful methods.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Vajrahridaya » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:37 am

Jñāna wrote:
Vajrahridaya wrote:Because you have no capacity to understand the power and practice of Tantra, doesn't mean your subjective opinion holds light.

Because you lack direct experience of tantras fruit, you poison your own mind with baseless assumptions.

Looks like you're the one making baseless assumptions. It's quite hilarious when people like yourself assume that anyone who disagrees with you must lack capacity or not be a vajrayāna practitioner. Sorry, but you have no capacity to excommunicate me or anyone else.

All the best,

Geoff


So the tortoise says of the sky to the dove who fly's.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:43 am

adinatha wrote:In Vajrayana, capacity means interest and participation. Because you have neither, you do not have the capacity to practice Vajrayana. Basically, it doesn't resonate with you. But wait, you have some interest don't you. Still poking around here.

Yet another baseless assumption. You can knock off the ad homs any time and get back to discussing the issue.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:46 am

Jñāna wrote:
adinatha wrote:In Vajrayana, capacity means interest and participation. Because you have neither, you do not have the capacity to practice Vajrayana. Basically, it doesn't resonate with you. But wait, you have some interest don't you. Still poking around here.

Yet another baseless assumption. You can knock off the ad homs any time and get back to discussing the issue.


There is no ad hom here. You tell me do you have an interest in practicing Vajrayana or not? If you do, you have capacity. If you do not, then you do not. It's that simple.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:55 am

adinatha wrote:You tell me do you have an interest in practicing Vajrayana or not?

Who are you to make any demands? FTR, the vajrayāna isn't being attacked here. I would suggest that the difficulty you're having thus far in this discussion is that you think you have a dog in the hunt. Get over yourself.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:18 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:
kirtu wrote:I hadn't realized that this was such a big deal for some people on this board. Full enlightenment in this lifetime (meaning before death) is a pretty lofty goal. How many people attain that goal before they die? Not very many. So some people are actually saying that they'd stay away from tantra due to the very existence of a practice that they are most unlikely to do in this lifetime? It doesn't make much sense.

The lineage traditions state that many, perhaps most of the illustrious Vajrayana masters did not attain full enlightenment in this body and were variously on the bhumis.

Since on the lower bhumis a person can't be distinguished from a Buddha then it's almost as accurate to say that yes indeed monks and nuns can get full enlightenment because they certainly could attain a bhumi in this lifetime.

Kirt

Couldn't have been better said.


LOL, this is exactly the kind of telephone game crap that made my decision to leave rather easy. (Yes, I poked my head back in, but don't plan to stick around otherwise my attention whore "I'm leaving" announcement could become a very embarrassing though hilarious empty "threat" spectacle.)

The only person this could possibly be addressing is me and it isn't remotely an accurate characterization of what I said. It's a strawman response. There's quite a bit more nuance and emotion if you read my original comments on page 2 of this thread. You may not understand it, but I guarantee it wasn't, "Aw shit, if I can't achieve liberation in one lifetime, what's the point?" What it was is pure frustration on the amount of stuff I apparently have to do and this originally appeared to be one more thing. Maybe you have the attitude of "oh big deal if you can only do an hour or so of practice a day, just do your best" but I sure as hell don't. I'm very aware that my practice is mostly futile and my goal is not to spend a lifetime in futile practice because what the hell does that guarantee me? Not much.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:27 am

padma norbu wrote:Maybe you have the attitude of "oh big deal if you can only do an hour or so of practice a day, just do your best" but I sure as hell don't. I'm very aware that my practice is mostly futile and my goal is not to spend a lifetime in futile practice because what the hell does that guarantee me? Not much.


Norbu, how do you see it this way in light of the understanding that no cause can fail to have a result? How do you figure that even one moment of your Dharma practice is futile, let alone an hour a day? And didn't you say Rinpoche told you "don't you worry, you just do your best"? Also, don't you think you are ignoring or forgetting that the causes you create through practice and aspirations in this lifetime will create more conducive circumstances for Dharma practice in your next life if for some reason you don't attain liberation at the moment of death or in the bardo?
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:31 am

Jñāna wrote:
adinatha wrote:You tell me do you have an interest in practicing Vajrayana or not?

Who are you to make any demands? FTR, the vajrayāna isn't being attacked here. I would suggest that the difficulty you're having thus far in this discussion is that you think you have a dog in the hunt. Get over yourself.


Seriously, this is totally coming out of left field. You're super hostile dude. Mindfulness. Look here,

Jñāna wrote:
Vajrahridaya wrote:
Jñāna wrote:There's nothing "dogmatic" about it. In comparison to the non-carnal joy (prīti) and pleasure (sukha) of meditative equipoise, even the most ecstatic sensual pleasure is gross -- a violent psychosomatic seizure. A yogī who's sufficiently developed the former has no use for the latter.


Because you have no capacity to understand the power and practice of Tantra, doesn't mean your subjective opinion holds light.

Because you lack direct experience of tantras fruit, you poison your own mind with baseless assumptions.

Looks like you're the one making baseless assumptions. It's quite hilarious when people like yourself assume that anyone who disagrees with you must lack capacity or not be a vajrayāna practitioner. Sorry, but you have no capacity to excommunicate me or anyone else.


One guy said you don't have capacity, you said it was a baseless assumption. You say in various posts that tantra is not a valid Buddhist teaching, but in the quote above you chide the guy for assuming you are not a Vajrayana practitioner. So are you a Vajrayana practitioner with woeful angst because your path is founded on a fantasy? Yer talkin outta boef sidez ov yer mouf boy. Are you high?
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:38 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Maybe you have the attitude of "oh big deal if you can only do an hour or so of practice a day, just do your best" but I sure as hell don't. I'm very aware that my practice is mostly futile and my goal is not to spend a lifetime in futile practice because what the hell does that guarantee me? Not much.


Norbu, how do you see it this way in light of the understanding that no cause can fail to have a result? How do you figure that even one moment of your Dharma practice is futile, let alone an hour a day? And didn't you say Rinpoche told you "don't you worry, you just do your best"? Also, don't you think you are ignoring or forgetting that the causes you create through practice and aspirations in this lifetime will create more conducive circumstances for Dharma practice in your next life if for some reason you don't attain liberation at the moment of death or in the bardo?


Well, since you asked and I happen to be here, I'll tell you. Keep in mind, you asked... when you ask me a question, you might not get the answer you'd hoped for.

To put it bluntly, Pema, I don't believe it based on the results I'm seeing from the effort I have expended. I should clarify that I don't believe I will really make much difference in the outcome.

On top of that, I have doubts, many doubts in fact, and I know that is not good for practice, either. "Not remaining in doubt" is one of Garab Dorje's main points, but what can I do? I have not experienced rigpa so strongly that I say, "Oh yes, yes, definitely, now I get it! Right! It's totally gonna all work out! Bitchen..." In fact, I've asked many people who are more advanced then me and, when they are not being all authoritative and stacking up their accumulated knowledge in neat little paragraphs on the internet somewhere, they respond to me, personally, in a way that is very much different: "NOBODY GETS IT! IF YOU 'GOT IT' YOU WOULD BE A BUDDHA ALREADY, DUDE! HAHAHAHA!" Oh yes, very reassuring. No wonder I get the feeling that the blind is leading the blind. Many times I have looked around and considered very seriously that I am involved in a cult no different from any other; just a bunch of people believing what they want, perhaps what they need in order to get through the day (I don't know) and doing weird shit to their endocrine systems or whatever to induce calm, bliss, visions, whatever.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:48 am

padma norbu wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Maybe you have the attitude of "oh big deal if you can only do an hour or so of practice a day, just do your best" but I sure as hell don't. I'm very aware that my practice is mostly futile and my goal is not to spend a lifetime in futile practice because what the hell does that guarantee me? Not much.


Norbu, how do you see it this way in light of the understanding that no cause can fail to have a result? How do you figure that even one moment of your Dharma practice is futile, let alone an hour a day? And didn't you say Rinpoche told you "don't you worry, you just do your best"? Also, don't you think you are ignoring or forgetting that the causes you create through practice and aspirations in this lifetime will create more conducive circumstances for Dharma practice in your next life if for some reason you don't attain liberation at the moment of death or in the bardo?


Well, since you asked and I happen to be here, I'll tell you. Keep in mind, you asked... when you ask me a question, you might not get the answer you'd hoped for.

To put it bluntly, Pema, I don't believe it based on the results I'm seeing from the effort I have expended. I should clarify that I don't believe I will really make much difference in the outcome.

On top of that, I have doubts, many doubts in fact, and I know that is not good for practice, either. "Not remaining in doubt" is one of Garab Dorje's main points, but what can I do? I have not experienced rigpa so strongly that I say, "Oh yes, yes, definitely, now I get it! Right! It's totally gonna all work out! Bitchen..." In fact, I've asked many people who are more advanced then me and, when they are not being all authoritative and stacking up their accumulated knowledge in neat little paragraphs on the internet somewhere, they respond to me, personally, in a way that is very much different: "NOBODY GETS IT! IF YOU 'GOT IT' YOU WOULD BE A BUDDHA ALREADY, DUDE! HAHAHAHA!" Oh yes, very reassuring. No wonder I get the feeling that the blind is leading the blind. Many times I have looked around and considered very seriously that I am involved in a cult no different from any other; just a bunch of people believing what they want, perhaps what they need in order to get through the day (I don't know) and doing weird shit to their endocrine systems or whatever to induce calm, bliss, visions, whatever.


Just wondering. Have you participated in one of NNR's direct introductions using syllable Phat?

Also the defining characteristic of a cult is some cult leader who's come up with some new bullshit. Dzogchen is very ancient and has a living unbroken lineage going back to the Garab Dorje. The teachings and methods over that period of time has been very consistent. It's a yoga system.

Rigpa is really not that difficult. Mindfulness throughout daily life is difficult. If you can participate in a direct introduction, practice yantra yoga and the practices in the Tun Book, you're ability to remain mindful of rigpa will develop. NNR has thousands of students, I imagine very few are qualified to discuss their experience. But you don't have to rely on others. You do need faith that it works. Rigpa is not a fantasy. And it is something you can recognize.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:49 am

adinatha wrote:You're super hostile dude.

Now you're just projecting. Mindfulness includes being mindful that your mundane perceptions are only that -- your perceptions.

Jñāna wrote:You say in various posts that tantra is not a valid Buddhist teaching,

This fallacious conclusion is merely the result of your unwillingness or inability to accurately comprehend what I've said in this thread.

Jñāna wrote:So are you a Vajrayana practitioner with woeful angst because your path is founded on a fantasy?

No angst here. No axe to grind either. And no need for challenging anyone to abhiṣeka pissing contests in order to attempt to defend anyone or anything.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby LastLegend » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:50 am

padma norbu wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Maybe you have the attitude of "oh big deal if you can only do an hour or so of practice a day, just do your best" but I sure as hell don't. I'm very aware that my practice is mostly futile and my goal is not to spend a lifetime in futile practice because what the hell does that guarantee me? Not much.


Norbu, how do you see it this way in light of the understanding that no cause can fail to have a result? How do you figure that even one moment of your Dharma practice is futile, let alone an hour a day? And didn't you say Rinpoche told you "don't you worry, you just do your best"? Also, don't you think you are ignoring or forgetting that the causes you create through practice and aspirations in this lifetime will create more conducive circumstances for Dharma practice in your next life if for some reason you don't attain liberation at the moment of death or in the bardo?


Well, since you asked and I happen to be here, I'll tell you. Keep in mind, you asked... when you ask me a question, you might not get the answer you'd hoped for.

To put it bluntly, Pema, I don't believe it based on the results I'm seeing from the effort I have expended. I should clarify that I don't believe I will really make much difference in the outcome.

On top of that, I have doubts, many doubts in fact, and I know that is not good for practice, either. "Not remaining in doubt" is one of Garab Dorje's main points, but what can I do? I have not experienced rigpa so strongly that I say, "Oh yes, yes, definitely, now I get it! Right! It's totally gonna all work out! Bitchen..." In fact, I've asked many people who are more advanced then me and, when they are not being all authoritative and stacking up their accumulated knowledge in neat little paragraphs on the internet somewhere, they respond to me, personally, in a way that is very much different: "NOBODY GETS IT! IF YOU 'GOT IT' YOU WOULD BE A BUDDHA ALREADY, DUDE! HAHAHAHA!" Oh yes, very reassuring. No wonder I get the feeling that the blind is leading the blind. Many times I have looked around and considered very seriously that I am involved in a cult no different from any other; just a bunch of people believing what they want, perhaps what they need in order to get through the day (I don't know) and doing weird shit to their endocrine systems or whatever to induce calm, bliss, visions, whatever.


What's your plan?
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