Monks can't get full enlightenment?

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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:24 pm

Jñāna wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Jñāna wrote: It's quite easily verifiable that Gautama taught the opposite of karmamudrā and anything related to sexual yogas.


Okay. Verify then. What do you have? You keep repeating that it is easy to verify, so verify. What settles this issue? Be specific.

This isn't even remotely controversial. One specific example, MN 66 Laṭukikopama Sutta states that sensual pleasure is:

    [A] filthy pleasure, a worldly pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And I say that this pleasure is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared.

There are many other examples, such as MN 108 Gopakamoggallāna Sutta, where samādhi conjoined with sensual passion is specifically criticized. Anyone who's actually interested in this can check out Access to Insight, The Shorter Chinese Saṃyukta Āgama (T.100), The Online Sutta Correspondence Project, and so on.


LOL. I know what Hinayana says. The question is not what Hinayana says. The question is whether Gautama really said more than Hinayana at the time he gave the Hinayana. In the Chakrasamvara Tantra and Kalachakra Tantra it says Gautama was teaching these things while co-locating his body in so and so's kingdom whilst he taught the path of sex. You can say you don't believe this is so, but that don't make it not so. Mahayana sutras say the Buddha was teaching Hinayana to sravakas and Mahayana to bodhisattvas simultaneously by his miraculous power of speech.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:28 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:your posts come off as suggesting that the above sutta passages ultimately contradict the anuttarayoga tantras and supercede them. Am I right in assuming that this is not your intention and that you do not assert this?

You're right. It isn't my intention to propose that the Nikāyas and their Āgama counterparts supersede the vajrayāna and I haven't asserted anything of the sort.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:36 pm

adinatha wrote:LOL. I know what Hinayana says. The question is not what Hinayana says. The question is whether Gautama really said more than Hinayana at the time he gave the Hinayana.

As Namdrol, myself, and others have pointed out to you, Gautama only ever taught the Śrāvakayāna.

adinatha wrote:Mahayana sutras say the Buddha was teaching Hinayana to sravakas and Mahayana to bodhisattvas simultaneously by his miraculous power of speech.

There are a number of important Mahāyāna sūtras which are every bit as ascetically inclined as anything in the Nikāyas and Āgamas. Many of these passages were still being quoted by people like Śāntideva and Vimalamitra in the eighth century CE. For example, the Rāṣṭrapālaparipṛcchā Sūtra:

    May you dwell in crags, in the wilderness, and in caves, and abiding there, not exalt yourselves or vilify others. May you exhort yourselves continually, ever mindful that you turned away from millions of former buddhas. Abandon your craving for body and life; indifferent, apply yourself to the Dharma, generating ardent respect.

The Samādhirāja Sūtra:

    There has been no buddha in the past, nor will there be in the future, who abides in the household and who so established has achieved this supreme, highest enlightenment.

The Viśuddhaśraddhādārikāparipṛcchā Sūtra:

    [T]here are eight things by which a bodhisattva accomplishes the ascetic disciplines [dhutaguṇa] and always takes pleasure dwelling in the wilderness. What are the eight? (1) Having few desires; (2) Knowing satisfaction; (3) Fulfillment of the True Dharma; (4) Supporting oneself with what is meritorious; (5) Always upholding the four traditions of the spiritually ennobled [āryavaṃsa]; (6) Seeing the misery of saṃsāra, his mind is always disgusted and aloof; (7) He constantly observes [things as] impermanent, suffering, empty, and without self; (8) Having a deep faith that is unshakable, he does not fall into heterodox teachings. At that time the Blessed One again spoke these verses:

    Having few desires and knowing satisfaction, [the bodhisattva] does not abandon restraint. The manifold benefits of taking pleasure in the Dharma are what he nurtures as his riches. He finds enjoyment in always cultivating the traditions of the spiritually ennobled. When he sees the misery of saṃsāra, he generates thoughts of dread. For this reason he always takes pleasure in practicing the ascetic disciplines, alone, without companions, like the single horn of a rhinoceros. [Seeing all] compounded things as suffering and without self, he possesses gnosis and deep faith, abiding in true exertion.

    Seeing the Dharma for himself, he does not fall into heterodoxy. He always dwells in remote areas as praised by the Buddha. Purified, secluded, and without distress, [the bodhisattva] is without contention, cognizant of his own manifold shortcomings. Aloof from associations and divorced from flattery, [the bodhisattva] takes pleasure in dwelling in the wilderness.

The Ratnarāśi Sūtra:

    The wilderness-dwelling monk, Kāśyapa, should make his bed and seat in a wilderness, an abode in the forest, and a border area. He should dwell in wilderness border regions such as those without thieves, herdsmen or shepherds, without snakes, without wild beasts and flocks of birds, with few flies and stinging insects, with little noise, with few sounds of commotion.

    If that [monk] is a dweller in that wilderness abode, he should bring about eight deliberations. What are the eight?

    (1)He should not be concerned about his body.
    (2)He should not be concerned about his life.
    (3)He should not be concerned about wealth or honors.
    (4)He should not be concerned about all garrulous associations with others.
    (5)He should undertake to die in a wilderness like an animal.
    (6)He should dwell in the wilderness making use of the advantages offered by the wilderness.
    (7)He should live with his livelihood in accord with the Teaching; he should not live wrongly.
    (8)He should live in accord with a livelihood free from worldly material possessions and defilements.

    He should dwell in a wilderness abode bringing about these eight deliberations.

The Ugraparipṛcchā Sūtra:

    There has never been a bodhisattva who dwells in the household and who has awakened to unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. They all, moreover, having gone forth from the household, fixed their thoughts on the wilderness with a predilection toward the wilderness. Having gone to the wilderness, they awakened to unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. And [it is there that] they acquired the prerequisites [Skt. saṃbhāra] [for enlightenment; i.e., merit and gnosis].

And also from the same sutra:

    I should examine the matter as follows: “I came to the wilderness on account of being afraid of such frightening and terrifying things [as inauspicious rebirths, and so forth, as mentioned in a previous passage]. I cannot be freed from such frightening and terrifying things as these by living in the household, by living in company [with others], or by living without exerting myself, without applying myself diligently to yoga, or by thinking distractedly. All bodhisattvas mahāsattvas who appeared in the past were delivered from every fear by dwelling in the wilderness; in this way they obtained the fearlessness that is unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. All bodhisattvas mahāsattvas who will appear in the future will be delivered from every fear by dwelling in the wilderness; in this way they will obtain the fearlessness that is unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. All bodhisattvas mahāsattvas who appear in the present and who have obtained unexcelled, perfect enlightenment are delivered from every fear by dwelling in the wilderness; in this way they obtained the fearlessness that is unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. Therefore, I too, frightened and terrified here, and desiring to transcend every fear and attain the fearless state, should dwell in the wilderness.”
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:40 pm

Jñāna wrote:
adinatha wrote:LOL. I know what Hinayana says. The question is not what Hinayana says. The question is whether Gautama really said more than Hinayana at the time he gave the Hinayana.

As Namdrol, myself, and others have pointed out to you, Gautama only ever taught the Śrāvakayāna.


No one has proved a damn thing. You all think assumptions are facts. You have no fact that can ever definitively prove your point. And that is a fact.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:43 pm

Jñāna wrote:There are a number of important Mahāyāna sūtras which are every bit as ascetically inclined as anything in the Nikāyas and Āgamas. Many of these passages were still being quoted by people like Śāntideva and Vimalamitra in the eighth century CE. For example, the Rāṣṭrapālaparipṛcchā Sūtra:

    May you dwell in crags, in the wilderness, and in caves, and abiding there, not exalt yourselves or vilify others. May you exhort yourselves continually, ever mindful that you turned away from millions of former buddhas. Abandon your craving for body and life; indifferent, apply yourself to the Dharma, generating ardent respect.

The Samādhirāja Sūtra:

    There has been no buddha in the past, nor will there be in the future, who abides in the household and who so established has achieved this supreme, highest enlightenment.

The Viśuddhaśraddhādārikāparipṛcchā Sūtra:

    [T]here are eight things by which a bodhisattva accomplishes the ascetic disciplines [dhutaguṇa] and always takes pleasure dwelling in the wilderness. What are the eight? (1) Having few desires; (2) Knowing satisfaction; (3) Fulfillment of the True Dharma; (4) Supporting oneself with what is meritorious; (5) Always upholding the four traditions of the spiritually ennobled [āryavaṃsa]; (6) Seeing the misery of saṃsāra, his mind is always disgusted and aloof; (7) He constantly observes [things as] impermanent, suffering, empty, and without self; (8) Having a deep faith that is unshakable, he does not fall into heterodox teachings. At that time the Blessed One again spoke these verses:

    Having few desires and knowing satisfaction, [the bodhisattva] does not abandon restraint. The manifold benefits of taking pleasure in the Dharma are what he nurtures as his riches. He finds enjoyment in always cultivating the traditions of the spiritually ennobled. When he sees the misery of saṃsāra, he generates thoughts of dread. For this reason he always takes pleasure in practicing the ascetic disciplines, alone, without companions, like the single horn of a rhinoceros. [Seeing all] compounded things as suffering and without self, he possesses gnosis and deep faith, abiding in true exertion.

    Seeing the Dharma for himself, he does not fall into heterodoxy. He always dwells in remote areas as praised by the Buddha. Purified, secluded, and without distress, [the bodhisattva] is without contention, cognizant of his own manifold shortcomings. Aloof from associations and divorced from flattery, [the bodhisattva] takes pleasure in dwelling in the wilderness.

The Ratnarāśi Sūtra:

    The wilderness-dwelling monk, Kāśyapa, should make his bed and seat in a wilderness, an abode in the forest, and a border area. He should dwell in wilderness border regions such as those without thieves, herdsmen or shepherds, without snakes, without wild beasts and flocks of birds, with few flies and stinging insects, with little noise, with few sounds of commotion.

    If that [monk] is a dweller in that wilderness abode, he should bring about eight deliberations. What are the eight?

    (1)He should not be concerned about his body.
    (2)He should not be concerned about his life.
    (3)He should not be concerned about wealth or honors.
    (4)He should not be concerned about all garrulous associations with others.
    (5)He should undertake to die in a wilderness like an animal.
    (6)He should dwell in the wilderness making use of the advantages offered by the wilderness.
    (7)He should live with his livelihood in accord with the Teaching; he should not live wrongly.
    (8)He should live in accord with a livelihood free from worldly material possessions and defilements.

    He should dwell in a wilderness abode bringing about these eight deliberations.

The Ugraparipṛcchā Sūtra:

    There has never been a bodhisattva who dwells in the household and who has awakened to unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. They all, moreover, having gone forth from the household, fixed their thoughts on the wilderness with a predilection toward the wilderness. Having gone to the wilderness, they awakened to unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. And [it is there that] they acquired the prerequisites [Skt. saṃbhāra] [for enlightenment; i.e., merit and gnosis].

And also from the same sutra:

    I should examine the matter as follows: “I came to the wilderness on account of being afraid of such frightening and terrifying things [as inauspicious rebirths, and so forth, as mentioned in a previous passage]. I cannot be freed from such frightening and terrifying things as these by living in the household, by living in company [with others], or by living without exerting myself, without applying myself diligently to yoga, or by thinking distractedly. All bodhisattvas mahāsattvas who appeared in the past were delivered from every fear by dwelling in the wilderness; in this way they obtained the fearlessness that is unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. All bodhisattvas mahāsattvas who will appear in the future will be delivered from every fear by dwelling in the wilderness; in this way they will obtain the fearlessness that is unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. All bodhisattvas mahāsattvas who appear in the present and who have obtained unexcelled, perfect enlightenment are delivered from every fear by dwelling in the wilderness; in this way they obtained the fearlessness that is unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. Therefore, I too, frightened and terrified here, and desiring to transcend every fear and attain the fearless state, should dwell in the wilderness.”


So f'ing what? This doesn't prove the Buddha didn't also teach the Chakrasamvara and Kalachakra, to name just two, where it talks about having a lot of sex.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Jnana » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:50 pm

adinatha wrote:So f'ing what?

A few more examples from Mahāyāna sūtras. The Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra:

    Furthermore, Subhūti, the bodhisattva, mahāsattva, who is engaged in the practice of perfection of wisdom, examines this very body as it truly is, from the soles of the feet up and the tips of the hair down, bounded [on the outside] by nails, body hair, and skin, and filled [on the inside] with many kinds of impurities. He observes this body as it truly is and that in it there are the following: (1) hair of the head, (2) hair of the body, (3) fingernails and toenails, (4) teeth, (5) skin, (6) skin irritations, (7) flesh, (8) tendons, (9) blood, (10) bones, (11) marrow, (12) heart, (13) kidneys, (14) liver, (15) lungs, (16) spleen, (17) large intestine, (18) small intestine, (19) mesentery, (20) stomach, (21) urine, (22) feces, (23) tears, (24) sweat, (25) fat, (26) saliva, (27) nasal mucus, (28) pus, (29) bile, (30) phlegm, (31) watery body fluid, (32) oily body fluid, (33) impurities, (34) brain matter, (35) cerebral membrane, (36) mucous discharge of the eye, and (37) ear secretions.

    For example, Subhūti, if a person with seeing eyes were to open a farmer’s sack filled with different kinds of grain, such as sesame, mustard seed, lentils, mung beans, barley, wheat, and rice, he would know, “This is sesame,” “This is mustard seed,” “This is lentils,” “This is mung beans,” “This is barley,” “This is wheat,” and “This is rice.” Likewise, Subhūti, a bodhisattva, mahāsattva, examines this very body as it truly is, from the soles of the feet up and the tips of the hair down, bounded [on the outside] by nails, body hair, and skin, and filled [on the inside] with many kinds of impurities.

And from the same sūtra:

    Furthermore, Subhūti, when the bodhisattva, mahāsattva, who is engaged in the practice of perfection of wisdom, has gone to a charnel ground and sees many different kinds of corpses that have been discarded in that charnel ground, abandoned in that place for dead bodies, which have been dead for one, two, three, four, or five days, which are swollen, dark blue, putrid, worm-infested, partially eaten, or dismembered, he should compare his own body with them in the following way: “This body also has the same quality. It is of the same nature, and it has not gone beyond that condition.” O Subhūti, this is how the bodhisattva, mahāsattva, who is engaged in the practice of perfection of wisdom, dwells watching the body in relation to an outer body.

And again, from the same sūtra:

    Furthermore, Subhūti, the bodhisattva, mahāsattva, who is engaged in the practice of perfection of wisdom, examines this very body as it truly is, in relation to its constituent elements. [In so doing, he observes,] “In this body, there is the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element.” For example, Subhūti, consider how a skillful cow-butcher or cow-butcher’s apprentice might slaughter a cow with a sharp knife. After slaughtering it, he might then divide it into four quarters. Then, after dividing it into four quarters, while either standing or sitting, he might examine it. In just this way, the bodhisattva, mahāsattva, who is engaged in the practice of perfection of wisdom, also examines this very body as it truly is, in relation to its constituent elements.

The Rāṣṭrapālaparipṛcchā Sūtra:

    Realizing that sufferings are endless, the mild-mannered abandon their evil course of conduct. You too should apply yourself always to the good course, lest afterwards you have regrets.

    You for whom the Buddha is dear, as well as the noble assembly, and the qualities of moral training and ascetic discipline, apply yourself constantly in this way, relinquishing reputation, profit, fame, and renown.

    It won’t be long before everything valued is lost; there is nothing permanent in this world.

The Rāṣṭrapālaparipṛcchā Sūtra also states:

    These women are beautiful and pleasing only on the surface. On account of its impurities, I have no interest in this contraption of sinews and bones. Oozing of excretions — blood, urine, and excrement — how can I delight in what are surely only suitable for a cemetery?

    I would not listen to song nor would I take up instrumental music; such pleasures are like dreams, bewildering to the ignorant. The ignorant, attached to false discrimination, end up in ruin. Why should I be like a foolish person who is a slave to his defilements?

    When frost appears, all of these trees and creepers will no longer be enjoyable as trees are in the forest. Impermanence destroys all beauty. Am I out of delusion to give myself up to wantonness in this unsteady life?

    The mind is insatiable like the ocean. Desire is repeatedly attached to the continuation of craving. Looking at the world where people kill one another out of passion, I will be as unshakable here as Mt. Meru is by the wind.

adinatha wrote:This doesn't prove the Buddha didn't also teach the Chakrasamvara and Kalachakra, to name just two, where it talks about having a lot of sex.

As I've already said -- explicitly and unequivocally -- you're free to believe whatever you want to believe.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:57 pm

All these quotes only show what was written in a text, not what Gautama actually said.

adinatha wrote:This doesn't prove the Buddha didn't also teach the Chakrasamvara and Kalachakra, to name just two, where it talks about having a lot of sex.

As I've already said -- explicitly and unequivocally -- you're free to believe whatever you want to believe.[/quote]

I'm not saying what I believe. I'm saying what the texts say. That's your strategy, to prove your point with textual passages. Texts are not evidence of anything other than what words are contained in the text.

You have not proven Gautama *Only* taught Sravakayana. You just haven't. You are so smart, you should be able to see that.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:00 am

All you buddhist scholars really need to understand from like a philosophy of science perspective, what constitutes a fact.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Jnana » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:19 am

adinatha wrote:I'm not saying what I believe. I'm saying what the texts say.

Your premise fails to take into account the historical record. Moreover, the result of your assertions completely marginalize what all Buddhists agree Gautama actually taught. I consider such a premise to be too limiting, and these limitations are quite unnecessary.

Also, from a somewhat more pragmatic perspective, there are far sweeter contemplative fruits in the Buddhist repertoire than sexual union yoga. Both "above" and "below" this level of practice (according to the traditional 9 yāna model). And there are also other dzogrim practices which are simpler to develop and maintain, which are optimally efficacious practices for chagchen and dzogchen practitioners.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:31 am

Jñāna wrote:
adinatha wrote:I'm not saying what I believe. I'm saying what the texts say.

Your premise fails to take into account the historical record. Moreover, the result of your assertions completely marginalize what all Buddhists agree Gautama actually taught. I consider such a premise to be too limiting, and these limitations are quite unnecessary.


You keep repeating yourself without adding anything new. Your premise about what all buddhists agree about is fallacious. The historical record is a dearth of a record. You think sutras are a historical record. They are not.

Also, from a somewhat more pragmatic perspective, there are far sweeter contemplative fruits in the Buddhist repertoire than sexual union yoga. Both "above" and "below" this level of practice (according to the traditional 9 yāna model). And there are also other dzogrim practices which are simpler to develop and maintain, which are optimally efficacious practices for chagchen and dzogchen practitioners.


Again, here you go with your opinion. To hell with your opinion. Do what works for you and let everyone else do the same.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Jnana » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:47 am

adinatha wrote:To hell with your opinion.

So far in my interaction with you on two threads your participation has been less than admirable. First you accused me of being Hīnayāna -- trespassing on the sacred ground of the Tibetan Buddhism forum. And your replies haven't improved from there. I could care less what you think. There are no sacred cows in Buddhism.

adinatha wrote:Do what works for you and let everyone else do the same.

I'm not stopping you from doing anything bud. Knock yourself out.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby gnegirl » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:51 am

No one told me the soaps were on!

So what have i missed? Anyone seen that diet coke??

:popcorn:
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:25 am

Jñāna wrote:So far in my interaction with you on two threads your participation has been less than admirable.


Jñāna wrote: I could care less what you think.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby gnegirl » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:27 am

ok peeps,

Do we need to talk Beer Summit? Really?
:cheers:
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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