sillinessJñāna wrote:Yeah, that's the party line. But it's time to raise the bar. There's no need to continue to pretend that low level upāyas are actually exalted practices. The sooner one jettisons such ideas the better.Adamantine wrote:Vajrayana practices are methods revealed to bring people to enlightenment in the swiftest ways possible.
All the best,
Geoff
Monks can't get full enlightenment?
- Adamantine
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
not quite...mixing desire with an understanding of emptiness is infinitely more valuable than bringing about a temporary cessation of desire by building yourself a better mind (ie. form realm mind of the dhyanas). anyone can do the latter, almost noone can do the formerpadma norbu wrote:It's definitely something like ordinary sex. You have to be aroused or that thing ain't going in that other thing. That's pretty interesting right there since accomplishment in meditation greatly reduces the sex drive and sex is only possible thanks to desire and attachment. If you don't desire it, you're not going to get an erection except by the odd physical function, perhaps, due to build up of hormones and semen or something which would probably result in nocturnal emissions for one who is not interested in sex.
Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
It's quite obvious that you have no interest in intellectual honesty. Moreover, this "us vs. them" rhetoric is utter bullshit. It's fine if you choose to keep your head in the sand, I wouldn't expect otherwise. But it's quite absurd to expect others to do the same.adinatha wrote:Hinayana does not have methods to realize buddhahood. That's hardly raising the bar. You need to stop pretending you have something to bring to the table here. Your four foundations of mindfulness is a nice practice. Go observe your vedana and stop with your stupid talk, Geoff.
All the best,
Geoff
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
You confuse arousal and sexual stimulation with attachment. Just as it says in Abidharma, the sense doors are all utterly nonconceptual in every person. It is the mental consciousness that then engages these sense data and that consciousness may either react with attachment or aversion, or in the individual who's received empowerment, transmission, and pith instructions in anuttarayogatantra, it may simply relax and remain totally open to this sense data and not cling to it and in fact take advantage of that energy, joining it with the performance of mental and physical yogas to manipulate the channels, winds, and drops in such a way that the subtlemost levels of mind become accessible. This is all about using the human body one has to make it help one realize emptiness very quickly. Non-tantric practitioners and those without much learning in this area fail to understand that it is the configuration of one's channels and the way they direct ones winds and drops which accounts for how realized or unrealized one is.padma norbu wrote: It's definitely something like ordinary sex. You have to be aroused or that thing ain't going in that other thing. That's pretty interesting right there since accomplishment in meditation greatly reduces the sex drive and sex is only possible thanks to desire and attachment. If you don't desire it, you're not going to get an erection except by the odd physical function, perhaps, due to build up of hormones and semen or something which would probably result in nocturnal emissions for one who is not interested in sex.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
- LastLegend
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
I think Tantra texts on sex should be read symbolically and have nothing to do with the actual practice of sex. To do so would be rationalizing away our mundane desires or attachments. Clearly, Sakyamuni Buddha never taught sex as a part of the path at all. Sakyamuni Buddha taught detachment from sex and all attachments. Again, the path is the path of detachment. There is no need be engaging sex if one is clear about the path and that one wants to realize enlightenment. Imagine fire is the root of attachments, and the act of sex is like wood.
It’s eye blinking.
- padma norbu
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Sorry, I don't believe it. At best it's pure imagination. Nobody is sucking vaginal fluid in their peehole and sending it up to their head and back down to their heart. You might as well try to tell me that by force of will you can squeeze shit from your lower intestine out your nostrils.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
- Adamantine
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
the level of misrepresentation and subsequent misunderstanding of these things is reaching cartoonish proportions, and is a great illustration why these practices are not meant to
be openly discussed. Half of this page of posts should be deleted. There is nothing useful here.
be openly discussed. Half of this page of posts should be deleted. There is nothing useful here.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Dude, you're making something out of nothing. Attaining enlightenment is about gathering the two accumulations - merit and wisdom. So you don't have the circumstances to be able to drop everything and practice full-time as some cave-dwelling yogi like you'd like to. Maybe you can't presently handle practicing more than 45 mins or an hour. So what? That doesn't mean you can't still gather the two accumulations of merit and wisdom little by little and move closer and closer toward enlightenment. From the time that you wake up til the time you go to bed, in all the mundane things you have to do, there's not one that can't be transformed into an opportunity to generate merit and wisdom and dedicate it to the buddhahood of all beings (which includes you). So maybe it takes you two lifetimes, or 16, instead of one. If that's the best you can do, then so be it. Beats the impossibility of attaining Buddhahood, and in any case, if that is truly the best you can do, then what choice do you have? Realizing Buddhahood is not a now or never deal. To think along the lines that if "I can't realize it in one lifetime, it's just out of reach and hopeless" is horseshit and it is self-defeating.padma norbu wrote:Sure it does. I can't grow a second dick, either. Even if I use The Secret™.Jangchup Donden wrote:The mind has infinite potential for what it can display. Just because you don't want to go through the effort to gather the merit and conditions to achieve something, doesn't mean you can't do it.padma norbu wrote: With that kind of attitude of course you won't.
I will never make it into the baseball or rock n' roll hall of fames, either.
My mind is very limited and there are great lamas who have said that they haven't experienced anything wondrous. Pema Chodron says she is still a terrible meditator. I asked Lama Tsering Everest some question I figured she'd know for sure and she got a funny look and said she didn't know, she's still learning. Perhaps they are lying for some strange reason, using "useful means" or whatever the term is. In any case, the various lamas I am thinking of don't have wives who are not interested in Buddhism, but I do. I will not cheat on my wife to do some weird sexual practice with another woman. And, yes, I think it is "weird" to go have sex without orgasm to achieve enlightenment. Sorry. I don't have the brainpower or willpower to do enough practice to expect sex with a dakini. On a good day, I can maybe do about an hour of practice. I did a 3-day retreat once and almost lost my frak mind.
People on forums sometimes say silly things about other people's lives without knowing jack squat about them. Theoretically, yes, I could quit my job, move to a cave and spent 20 years trying my damnedest to meditate. Maybe something would come of that. Maybe I could bang dakinis. Then again, maybe not. YES YOU CAN! YES YOU CAN! is just a silly thing to say to someone you don't even know. I can't, trust me. "With this kind of attitude" is fine with me, call that the reason, then. I have a bad attitude.
Furthermore, you have met with an extraordinary Dzogchen master who has given you direct introduction and taught you umpteen methods to help you discover your true nature and gain stability in it - which means waking up to the primordial completion of the two accumulations! Stop worrying about when you'll attain this or that. Just resolve to keep practicing and toss your expectations out the window because they are clearly holding you back.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Well, you are completely wrong, but that is OK. What you should do is refrain from involving yourself in these types of discussions because there is a whole world of information that you are unaware of which causes you to think in this way, on top of the obvious fact that your karma is to practice the methods of Sutra Mahayana that arouse faith in you. Nothing wrong with that at all. Not one bit wrong with that. Just focus on practicing the precious methods and guidance Lord Shakyamuni transmitted via the Sutras and attend to your own path that way and approach the benefit of self and other that way.LastLegend wrote:I think Tantra texts on sex should be read symbolically and have nothing to do with the actual practice of sex. To do so would be rationalizing away our mundane desires or attachments. Clearly, Sakyamuni Buddha never taught sex as a part of the path at all. Sakyamuni Buddha taught detachment from sex and all attachments. Again, the path is the path of detachment. There is no need be engaging sex if one is clear about the path and that one wants to realize enlightenment. Imagine fire is the root of attachments, and the act of sex is like wood.
While you're doing that, you may benefit from learning the Abidharma teachings to get an understanding of how the five sense consciousnesses are complely nonconceptual - which means it is only the 6th or mental consciouness that engages in grasping at sense experiences, so you can better learn how to defeat attachment according to your own Sutra point of view. That would be a much more profitable use of your time.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
- LastLegend
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
I will be ready to respond to you if you really have an argument against what I said. Otherwise cut the emotional reaction.Pema Rigdzin wrote:Well, you are completely wrong, but that is OK. What you should do is refrain from involving yourself in these types of discussions because there is a whole world of information that you are unaware of which causes you to think in this way, on top of the obvious fact that your karma is to practice the methods of Sutra Mahayana that arouse faith in you. Nothing wrong with that at all. Not one bit wrong with that. Just focus on practicing the precious methods and guidance Lord Shakyamuni transmitted via the Sutras and attend to your own path that way and approach the benefit of self and other that way.LastLegend wrote:I think Tantra texts on sex should be read symbolically and have nothing to do with the actual practice of sex. To do so would be rationalizing away our mundane desires or attachments. Clearly, Sakyamuni Buddha never taught sex as a part of the path at all. Sakyamuni Buddha taught detachment from sex and all attachments. Again, the path is the path of detachment. There is no need be engaging sex if one is clear about the path and that one wants to realize enlightenment. Imagine fire is the root of attachments, and the act of sex is like wood.
While you're doing that, you may benefit from learning the Abidharma teachings to get an understanding of how the five sense consciousnesses are complely nonconceptual - which means it is only the 6th or mental consciouness that engages in grasping at sense experiences, so you can better learn how to defeat attachment according to your own Sutra point of view. That would be a much more profitable use of your time.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Geoff,Jñāna wrote:Yeah, that's the party line. But it's time to raise the bar. There's no need to continue to pretend that low level upāyas are actually exalted practices. The sooner one jettisons such ideas the better.Adamantine wrote:Vajrayana practices are methods revealed to bring people to enlightenment in the swiftest ways possible.
All the best,
Geoff
When the Sutras clearly explain that their methods require practice over 3 incalculable kalpas - at best - in order to realize Buddhahood, yet these "low-level upayas" in Vajrayana allow one to realize it in as little as one lifetime, I wonder what qualifies the latter upayas as "low-level."
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
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- Posts: 1292
- Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
- Location: Southern Oregon
Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
- padma norbu
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Thank you. And thank you for your response in my dramatic attention-whore exit thread, too.LastLegend wrote:I think Tantra texts on sex should be read symbolically and have nothing to do with the actual practice of sex. To do so would be rationalizing away our mundane desires or attachments. Clearly, Sakyamuni Buddha never taught sex as a part of the path at all. Sakyamuni Buddha taught detachment from sex and all attachments. Again, the path is the path of detachment. There is no need be engaging sex if one is clear about the path and that one wants to realize enlightenment. Imagine fire is the root of attachments, and the act of sex is like wood.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Sūtras composed by a very diverse collection of Indians. In some cases replete with internal inconsistencies. Often composed as part of historical polemical dialogues.Pema Rigdzin wrote:When the Sutras clearly explain that their methods require practice over 3 incalculable kalpas - at best - in order to realize Buddhahood
Tantras composed by an equally diverse collection of Indians, etc.Pema Rigdzin wrote:yet these "low-level upayas" in Vajrayana allow one to realize it in as little as one lifetime
There is plenty of good stuff in both, and also plenty of nonsense in both.
This discussion is about one particular upāya. The reason has already been given.Pema Rigdzin wrote:I wonder what qualifies the latter upayas as "low-level."
All the best,
Geoff
Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
good--dont accept it until you hear a damn good explanationpadma norbu wrote:Sorry, I don't believe it. At best it's pure imagination.
Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Thread has been cleaned. Please be aware to not to openly share Vajrayana practices with explicit instructions.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
For those unaware of the nature of everything,
Great bliss is attained in sexual union;
As if thirst-ridden, chasing after water in mirage,
They die from thirst, and do they ever drink the sky-water?
Whoever frolics in this bliss,
Living between vajra and lotus,
What for? This has no capacity for truth,
So {where} in the three worlds will you be complete?
The bliss of means is the moment,
And this itself becomes both;
Through the kindness of the master,
A handful in a hundred will understand.
(Saraha in Dreaming the Great Brahmin, p. 166)
The Kalachakra-tantra states:
Out of critical determination, one dissociates from the female consort (karmamudra)
And abstains from the inner consort of manifest awareness (jnanamudra).
By concentrating on that which is supreme and immutable,
One meditates on Mahamudra.
Padmavajra in the Guhyasiddhi advises:
The female consort of transformation is tumultuous and devious.
So is the inner consort of manifest awareness.
Abandon these, which are replete with discrimination,
And meditate on Mahamudra.
Manjusri, in his Tawai Döpa Dortenpa, says,
Crazy and malignant is the female consort;
The inner consort of manifest awareness is the same.
Abandon these in the dualistic realm
And practice Mahamudra.
(Mahamudra: The Moonlight, p. 98)
Great bliss is attained in sexual union;
As if thirst-ridden, chasing after water in mirage,
They die from thirst, and do they ever drink the sky-water?
Whoever frolics in this bliss,
Living between vajra and lotus,
What for? This has no capacity for truth,
So {where} in the three worlds will you be complete?
The bliss of means is the moment,
And this itself becomes both;
Through the kindness of the master,
A handful in a hundred will understand.
(Saraha in Dreaming the Great Brahmin, p. 166)
The Kalachakra-tantra states:
Out of critical determination, one dissociates from the female consort (karmamudra)
And abstains from the inner consort of manifest awareness (jnanamudra).
By concentrating on that which is supreme and immutable,
One meditates on Mahamudra.
Padmavajra in the Guhyasiddhi advises:
The female consort of transformation is tumultuous and devious.
So is the inner consort of manifest awareness.
Abandon these, which are replete with discrimination,
And meditate on Mahamudra.
Manjusri, in his Tawai Döpa Dortenpa, says,
Crazy and malignant is the female consort;
The inner consort of manifest awareness is the same.
Abandon these in the dualistic realm
And practice Mahamudra.
(Mahamudra: The Moonlight, p. 98)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Although one really shouldn't discuss the karmamudra practice publicly, the horse has longsince bolted the barn. Although Lama Yeshe does not discuss this practice, the foundation of higher practices like this (using the energies of the body directly for transformation) can be found in his book "The Bliss of Inner Fire". Please refer to that book to get an overview of the flavor of these kinds of inner prctices.
BTW - this is a shockingly open book. I hesitate to even mention it except that this can illuminate a basic principle of tantra (the unification of bliss and the wisdom cognizing emptiness) and hopefully keep this thread from an inappropriate spiral.
Kirt
BTW - this is a shockingly open book. I hesitate to even mention it except that this can illuminate a basic principle of tantra (the unification of bliss and the wisdom cognizing emptiness) and hopefully keep this thread from an inappropriate spiral.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
- Sonam Wangchug
- Posts: 427
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm
Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
We won't really be working towards benefiting all sentient beings by slinging mud at each other.
Let us keep the conversation for the sake of learning, and discussing ideas, with healthy debates. The coarse language, and clashes really benefit no one.
Let us keep the conversation for the sake of learning, and discussing ideas, with healthy debates. The coarse language, and clashes really benefit no one.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa