Monks can't get full enlightenment?

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Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Sonam Wangchug » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:47 pm

I have heard this from reputable sources, however I have also heard contrary from reputable sources.

The claim is that one cannot achieve 'full' enlightenment without Physical Karma mudra practice.

I would like what you think about this, if you think this is the case or not? does one need a consort to achieve full enlightenment?

Also any references to texts, or other reputable sources would be good for the discussion
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby username » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:22 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:I have heard this from reputable sources, however I have also heard contrary from reputable sources.


:spy: Pssst...What does Huggy Bear say?
Just like Shakyamuni, before waking up, some cream rice is always nice. No attachments no problems.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby kirtu » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:09 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:I have heard this from reputable sources, however I have also heard contrary from reputable sources.

The claim is that one cannot achieve 'full' enlightenment without Physical Karma mudra practice.

I would like what you think about this, if you think this is the case or not? does one need a consort to achieve full enlightenment?

Also any references to texts, or other reputable sources would be good for the discussion


This is asserted in the Vajrayana. To situated that, if a person is on the lower bhumis then they appear to be enlightened to people not on the bhumis. If a person is on the higher bhumis, they aren't fully enlightened either except really no one knows that except beings on an even higher bhumi or fully enlightened beings.

So it really doesn't make a real difference. Lama Tsongkhapa and some Sakya masters are said to have taken rebirth in a Pure Land after death in order to attain full and perfect enlightenment.

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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:06 am

Seems like a lot of people who are not enlightened are experts on enlightenment!
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:10 am

Seems like some people need to study harder what widely accepted enlightened masters teach.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:53 am

It also sounds like a line somebody thought up to use so they wouldn't be sleeping alone that night!!! :tongue:
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:04 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:I have heard this from reputable sources, however I have also heard contrary from reputable sources.

The claim is that one cannot achieve 'full' enlightenment without Physical Karma mudra practice.

I would like what you think about this, if you think this is the case or not? does one need a consort to achieve full enlightenment?

Also any references to texts, or other reputable sources would be good for the discussion


It is generally understood in the tantric tradition, that it is not possible to bring all five winds into the central channel at the same time unless one performs karmamudra. The yogi will do the practice at an advanced stage. Milarepa did karmamudra with dakinis. The source for the oral instructions on the completion stage of the Kalachakra Tantra by Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey of the Gelugpa. I've also heard this from the Drikung Kagyu lamas. In some lineages an advanced yogi who is a monk will take a consort and it is not seen as violating vows, because this is what the Buddha said to do as part of the tantric method.

In Dzogchen and essence mahamudra, karmamudra is not important, and works with different channels.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Tenzin1 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:39 am

The Buddha did not teach the taking of consorts.

The bliss state reached via tantric practice is temporary only, and does not result in lasting Enlightenment. The Buddha's Enlightenment, which he attained after much focussed meditation, was the real deal; once he reached that state, it remained with him the rest of his life. Unlike tantric practitioners, who require regular "booster shots" to reach that bliss state again and again. This is not Enlightenment, this is attachment to bliss.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby heart » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:39 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:I have heard this from reputable sources, however I have also heard contrary from reputable sources.

The claim is that one cannot achieve 'full' enlightenment without Physical Karma mudra practice.

I would like what you think about this, if you think this is the case or not? does one need a consort to achieve full enlightenment?

Also any references to texts, or other reputable sources would be good for the discussion


A Nyingma monk told me that taking a physical consort is only necessary in the Sarma schools, in the Nyngma it was enough to visualize one in order to practice and accomplish the third empowerment practices. But my understanding is that you don't break your monks vows if you actually just do the practice with a qualified consort since no attachment is present, but that is probably only true for very realized practitioners. :smile:
There are many other Vajrayana practices that would seem to contradict the vows of the Hinayana but everyone is just hanged up on the sex, either you can practice Vajrayana as monk/nun or not is the actual question here.

Almost nothing is translated on the practices of the third empowerment.

/magnus
Last edited by heart on Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby LastLegend » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:57 am

Tenzin1 wrote:The Buddha did not teach the taking of consorts.

The bliss state reached via tantric practice is temporary only, and does not result in lasting Enlightenment. The Buddha's Enlightenment, which he attained after much focussed meditation, was the real deal; once he reached that state, it remained with him the rest of his life. Unlike tantric practitioners, who require regular "booster shots" to reach that bliss state again and again. This is not Enlightenment, this is attachment to bliss.


Interestingly, other meditation practitioners such as Chan also experience bliss and wonders but when they are out of merits, they'll lose all of their powers. Just like when the gods run out of merits, they will be reborn 3 lower realms again.

Buddha taught detachment from sex.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby kirtu » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:15 am

heart wrote:but everyone is just hanged up on the sex


Attachment to sex in at least three ways (attachment to sex itself, rejection of sex itself and attachment to views of sex) is a problem. Vajrayana takes everything on the path although it doesn't mean that people just indulge in sex.

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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:18 am

Some people are unable to fathom how sex and attachment could be separated. For these people, such an idea is just impossible haha. Since they continually confuse the action - sex - with the attachment that may or may not arise along with it, it makes me wonder if they also look at other blissful experiences the same way. I wonder if they avoid eating delicious foods, listening to great music, enjoying a beautiful sunny day after a long, dark, cold winter... I mean, with so much potential for attachment, it's practically impossible to escape samsara! One might be better off gouging out one's eyes, plucking out one's tongue, puncturing one's eardrums, cutting off one's nose, and tearing off the first few layers of one's skin to avoid the risk of even the slightest enjoyable perception or sensation, lest attachment arise and dash one's path to enlightenment!
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby muni » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:56 am

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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby LastLegend » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:29 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Some people are unable to fathom how sex and attachment could be separated. For these people, such an idea is just impossible haha. Since they continually confuse the action - sex - with the attachment that may or may not arise along with it, it makes me wonder if they also look at other blissful experiences the same way. I wonder if they avoid eating delicious foods, listening to great music, enjoying a beautiful sunny day after a long, dark, cold winter... I mean, with so much potential for attachment, it's practically impossible to escape samsara! One might be better off gouging out one's eyes, plucking out one's tongue, puncturing one's eardrums, cutting off one's nose, and tearing off the first few layers of one's skin to avoid the risk of even the slightest enjoyable perception or sensation, lest attachment arise and dash one's path to enlightenment!


While what you said is true, sex, eating, and sleeping is what brings pleasures to the body, and we have a habit of attaching to these things. That's why we are here. It is no secret that most of us can easily fall attachment to sex. If one's goal is to realize enlightenment, then he/she can easily and truly detach from sex for he/she realizes that the path is the path of detachment. Why lingering on to it now when eventually one has to let go of it? I am not holier than you by saying this. I am married myself, but I hope to be able to detach from it completely on the inside but still perform it as a husband. But not easily as it seems. I am just being honest here.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby 5heaps » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:51 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:I have heard this from reputable sources, however I have also heard contrary from reputable sources.
The claim is that one cannot achieve 'full' enlightenment without Physical Karma mudra practice.

"Yogis who have achieved a high level of the path and are fully qualified can engage in sexual activity, and a monastic with this ability can maintain all the precepts."
-The Essential Dalai Lama: His Important Teachings By Dalai Lama

but this is a very rare and high level of accomplisment..for example such a person would have at least some control over physical objects, and they would have great knowledge about emptiness, karma, etc..they should be able to quickly produce realization in you, since they have accomplished so much themselves
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:09 pm

heart wrote:
A Nyingma monk told me that taking a physical consort is only necessary in the Sarma schools...

Almost nothing is translated on the practices of the third empowerment.

/magnus



As for the first point, it very much depends upon what system one practices. If one is practicing according to the instructions of Naro Khachod, for example, no consort is necessary for realizing mahāmudra. It describes two paths, one for those who lack desire, and one for those who possess desire.

As for the second point, the practice of the third empowerment has been translated from Lamdre. There is not much variation over all in the consort practice instruction in different schools. In general, consort practice is a feature of mother tantra, and not so much a feature of father tantra.

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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:00 pm

Tenzin1 wrote:The Buddha did not teach the taking of consorts.

The bliss state reached via tantric practice is temporary only, and does not result in lasting Enlightenment. The Buddha's Enlightenment, which he attained after much focussed meditation, was the real deal; once he reached that state, it remained with him the rest of his life. Unlike tantric practitioners, who require regular "booster shots" to reach that bliss state again and again. This is not Enlightenment, this is attachment to bliss.


Wrongo dongo, chief. The Buddha taught the tantras when he co-located himself in Shambala and other places while giving the Prajnaparamita teachings at Vulture's Peak. You can take the position that the Buddha didn't teach the tantras. But the argument that the Buddha didn't teach the tantras actually applies to all the sutras of hinayana and mahayana.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby padma norbu » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:16 pm

This is really the kind of dialogue that makes the effort seem futile and hopeless to me. I will never be banging dakinis and I will never have a tantric sexual relationship. Of this I am certain. I will also never become a great gtummo practitioner or even a great meditator or contemplationer. Knowing all this, it does make me wonder why I am even bothering at all. The only thing that sets me aright again is belief in reincarnation, karma and lack of a savior. The world sucks, life is a constant struggle and I will not achieve liberation in this lifetime... but, what are my alternatives? A few million aeons continually going through this shit? Guess I will try, anyway, and hopefully some nice enlightened being will poke me in the eye or something in the bardo and wake me up.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby Jangchup Donden » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:49 pm

padma norbu wrote:This is really the kind of dialogue that makes the effort seem futile and hopeless to me. I will never be banging dakinis and I will never have a tantric sexual relationship. Of this I am certain. I will also never become a great gtummo practitioner or even a great meditator or contemplationer. Knowing all this, it does make me wonder why I am even bothering at all.


With that kind of attitude of course you won't.

The only thing that sets me aright again is belief in reincarnation, karma and lack of a savior. The world sucks, life is a constant struggle and I will not achieve liberation in this lifetime... but, what are my alternatives? A few million aeons continually going through this shit? Guess I will try, anyway, and hopefully some nice enlightened being will poke me in the eye or something in the bardo and wake me up.


Do your practice, dedicate your merit -- trust your Guru. He (or she)'ll get you there in less than 17 lives if you don't give up. That's what's awesome about Vajrayana.
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Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:03 pm

I agree attitude is everything. You can get a dakini (human or otherwise), it can TOTALLY happen.
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