Logic of multiplication dates

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Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Adamantine » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:56 pm

What is the logical explanation for days or months
when karmic effects are multiplied in intensity,
such as this month of Saga Dawa?
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Pero » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:48 pm

I have wondered that often myself and I doubt there is any. Although someone once mentioned that there is a sutra that mentions something about it. Personally I think it might be true because of the faith of the people more than anything.
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:03 am

Well if it's purely a faith based thing than it's kind
of embarrassing to discuss with anyone outside
of the most hard-line devout. But it's widely
advertised among Dharma centers in the west and
Tibetan calendars, so I was hoping there was at
least some explanatory basis...
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:47 am

one online sourcehttp://www.fpmt-ldc.org/askthegeshe_3.php, a Q&A with an FPMT geshe, gave this reply but the English is not very good so I am not sure I understand what he is trying to communicate, since it doesn't seem to conform to logical standards, maybe someone else can clarify:

The merit multiplying day is definitely multiplying merit. It is totally due to the commemorate the holy day of the enlightened being as well due to the holy prayer and blessing bestow on that particular day by the holy being. Merit multiple by the power of object such as the particular enlightened being on which we commemorating the day, and their prayer and blessing, and the subject - our motivation, actual prayer and dedication. Of course rejoicing is one of the way to accumulate the merit and with above condition, it multiples.

Rejoicing merit on normal day don’t have the above condition to multiple merit as on special Buddha day.

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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby ngodrup » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:26 am

So there's two things, it seems.

In general, certain occasions are more powerful than others--
like when you are very inspired, in the presence of a great master,
powerful object, or in the presence of birth, death, or important
activity like getting married or taking ordination.

So there are maybe two bases (of course everything is interdependent)
one would be peculiar elemental balance-- you feel powerful
another would be something connected with the triple gem or great masters
such as the 8 great wheel days and death days of lineage masters.

Historically, full moons, new moons, and eclipses are thought to be powerful.
There is some sense that this is the case, it cannot be written off as *strictly*
superstition. It may be the numbering system for multiplication is arbitrary
or traditional, or there may be something to it at the level of logic that
"Buddhas don't lie."

In any case, external circumstance and inner causes and intentions do come
together to make some experiences especially meaningful. Maybe we can adopt
and attitude of open ended agnosticism-- a kind of "well, I don't know, but it could be true."
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Pero » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:26 am

Adamantine wrote:Well if it's purely a faith based thing than it's kind
of embarrassing to discuss with anyone outside
of the most hard-line devout. But it's widely
advertised among Dharma centers in the west and
Tibetan calendars, so I was hoping there was at
least some explanatory basis...

Yes well for me it's not something I take very seriously. I see no logical reason for anyone's karma who is not a Buddhist to be affected in any way. In particular it doesn't make sense that some dude 2600 years ago did something and now everyone in the universe has karma multiplied because of it. If it were true then the Buddha basically pulled a fast one on us and screwed practically all sentient beings.

Full moons etc. are a different matter. Don't know how exactly it works but the effect of the moon is undeniable.
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby ngodrup » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:32 am

The other thing is-- if you practice daily, you will automatically
benefit from special days.
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:45 am

Just had one of my Lamas explain that it is related to the orbit of the earth, --so it is essentially about astrological alignments and as such there are reasons the Buddha was born on a certain day, and attained enlightenment on a certain day, -- these days were not random: as they were supercharged for the Buddha, so they are for us..
I'm sure as the Geshe mentions above, reflecting on the Buddha's accomplishment and rejoicing in it also has a powerful effect but that seems to be secondary to the multiplication question.
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Pero » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:00 am

Adamantine wrote:Just had one of my Lamas explain that it is related to the orbit of the earth, --so it is essentially about astrological alignments and as such there are reasons the Buddha was born on a certain day, and attained enlightenment on a certain day, -- these days were not random: as they were supercharged for the Buddha, so they are for us..
I'm sure as the Geshe mentions above, reflecting on the Buddha's accomplishment and rejoicing in it also has a powerful effect but that seems to be secondary to the multiplication question.

Ah. If that is so, then in reality the Buddha's accomplishments and "Saga Dawa" have nothing to do with the multiplication at all.
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:12 am

yeah, it seems to come at it from a different angle: but I think with these enlightened mindstreams you can't pin it down to one direction or the other anyway...
so yes, Buddha reached enlightenment on this powerful day of multiplication which perhaps increased the momentum of his positive karmic results; and maybe simultaneously the power of this realization itself magnetized the pattern cycle of the day in the way a nuclear bomb radiates a spatial area. It may be beyond one or the other. Which could be why there is more than one explanation. Just a thought!
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Pero » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:19 am

Adamantine wrote:yeah, it seems to come at it from a different angle: but I think with these enlightened mindstreams you can't pin it down to one direction or the other anyway...
so yes, Buddha reached enlightenment on this powerful day of multiplication which perhaps increased the momentum of his positive karmic results; and maybe simultaneously the power of this realization itself magnetized the pattern cycle of the day in the way a nuclear bomb radiates a spatial area. It may be beyond one or the other. Which could be why there is more than one explanation. Just a thought!

Hehe, but like I said, if that's true his enlightenment basically screwed everyone.

Also since there were many other people becoming enlightened here it would mean that there are many other such days, and if you add other planets where there are teachings it basically means every day is such a day, making any mention of multiplication for this reason trivial.
Really, it does not compute.
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:50 am

edit: ok, sorry, I said I had a link to an explanation of the basis for the multiplication dates thing by Lama Dawa Rinpoche, but it turns out I remembered kind of incorrectly. It's actually an explanation by someone who I believe is one of his students, and it only features a few supporting quotes of him about the topic... And the topic is only specifically talking about eclipses, rather than all the multiplying days. In any case, I wonder if what this little blog piece is talking about might nonetheless be related to the multiplication dates thing.
Last edited by Pema Rigdzin on Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:32 am

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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:00 am

Pero wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Full moons etc. are a different matter. Don't know how exactly it works but the effect of the moon is undeniable.


well, Saga Dawa Duchen for instance always falls on the full moon of the fourth lunar month, so you are kind of contradicting your skepticism here ;)
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Pero » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:36 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:OK, here's the link: http://www.evolver.net/user/celeste/blo ... ar_eclipse

Thanks, will read later.

Adamantine wrote:well, Saga Dawa Duchen for instance always falls on the full moon of the fourth lunar month, so you are kind of contradicting your skepticism here ;)

Doesn't Saga Dawa Duchen last for a month?
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby kirtu » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:54 pm

Pero wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:OK, here's the link: http://www.evolver.net/user/celeste/blo ... ar_eclipse

Thanks, will read later.

Adamantine wrote:well, Saga Dawa Duchen for instance always falls on the full moon of the fourth lunar month, so you are kind of contradicting your skepticism here ;)

Doesn't Saga Dawa Duchen last for a month?


No, Duchen itself is only 1 day. This is Saga Dawa month of course - June 2 - July 1.

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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Pero » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:19 pm

kirtu wrote:
Pero wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:OK, here's the link: http://www.evolver.net/user/celeste/blo ... ar_eclipse

Thanks, will read later.

Adamantine wrote:well, Saga Dawa Duchen for instance always falls on the full moon of the fourth lunar month, so you are kind of contradicting your skepticism here ;)

Doesn't Saga Dawa Duchen last for a month?


No, Duchen itself is only 1 day. This is Saga Dawa month of course - June 2 - July 1.

Kirt

Ah right, in the first post he says month. I don't really know what Duchen means so I thought it was maybe referring to the same thing. Is the supposed multiplication during just that day?
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby kirtu » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:08 pm

Pero wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Pero wrote:
Doesn't Saga Dawa Duchen last for a month?


No, Duchen itself is only 1 day. This is Saga Dawa month of course - June 2 - July 1.

Kirt

Ah right, in the first post he says month. I don't really know what Duchen means so I thought it was maybe referring to the same thing. Is the supposed multiplication during just that day?


As far as I know merit/demerit is just multiplied on the special days in that month (Duchen days + full/new moons + eclipse days) - the first month of the Tibetan new year has merit multiplied on every day for the first two weeks but that was because Shakyamuni Buddha performed a miracle on each of those days.

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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Pero » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:45 pm

kirtu wrote: the first month of the Tibetan new year has merit multiplied on every day for the first two weeks but that was because Shakyamuni Buddha performed a miracle on each of those days.

Is there any astrological significance during that time? If not, the conclusion is just the same as before, the Buddha screwed practically everyone.
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Re: Logic of multiplication dates

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:48 pm

Pero wrote:
kirtu wrote:No, Duchen itself is only 1 day. This is Saga Dawa month of course - June 2 - July 1.

Kirt

Ah right, in the first post he says month. I don't really know what Duchen means so I thought it was maybe referring to the same thing. Is the supposed multiplication during just that day?


Some say the whole month is a multiplication month, but I don't know the source.. The Rigpa calendar does not mention this. Disregarding previous years, this year the month of Saga Dawa began with a solar eclipse on the new moon, has an eclipse again on the full moon of Saga Dawa Duchen and then the month closes with yet another eclipse. According to even western astrology these periods between eclipses are extremely powerful transitional times, and more people die during these times than any others because people who have weak life force have a hard time withstanding the power of the transition. From Indian traditional perspective like in the link above eclipses only have negative connotation but through tantric practice can be harnessed and channeled for powerful positive effect. I've also heard them described as simply raw power that can be directed to good or bad effect.

The fourth month is also in the northern equatorial the ascending period of the summer ---> the peak season of heat and growth. It is to the 365 day long solar cycle what the 10th day is to the lunar cycle ----still building, but not quite full, it demarcates the expression of fulfilling potential in a yang or masculine form. I am just imagining some reasons why the fourth month in particular may have some special significance in the yearly cycle. Perhaps it is worth asking a Tibetan astrologer though.
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