Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

[Pero]

Pero: I agree with Magnus that you really must see this in the light of a bit more than recent history. Look at the Inquisition, they destroyed so much of what the Moorish and Jewish culture, science and art gave Spain that it put Spain back several centuries compared to where it had been. History tells us that atrocities have been done in the name of nearly every religion, particularly the Abramic 'series'. And to talk about "Islamic atrocities" in current history without even referencing the destruction that the neo-con Christian movement in the USA has wreaked upon the Middle East is remiss and prejudiced.

This is a topic about Ole and his view on Islam was mentioned. I don't disagree that nearly every religion, particularly Abrahamic have been used for atrocities but what you're basically saying is that I can't say anything against Islam unless I say something against Christianity etc. at the same time. Sorry but that's just BS. It's the same excuse China supporters use when someone say something against China because of Tibet, "oh the Europeans did the same thing to the Native Americans and nobody is saying anything about that".

[mudra]

Actually Pero it's not BS because what you are doing is creating a prejudice. So if you are going to quote one side of the story, make sure you see the other side.

As I said these atrocities may have been done in the "name" of such and such a religion but if you were to investigate it is more than likely that it is a deep misinterpretation of what the religion itself taught. I have no idea of how much knowledge you have of Islam, but rest assured there are as many if not many more 'schools' of Islam as there are in the Buddha Dharma.

The idea that Islam is monolithic, homogenous etc is just plain ignorance, and perhaps reflects prejudice

As Buddhists we know that kleshas/nyonmong/disturbing mental factors are the cause of our suffering. As prejudice is also a disturbing mental factor, therefore it follows that prejudice is dangerous - not religion.

[mudra]

SO indeed if someone who proclaims themselves as a lama (the very act itself being pretty icky), and then goes on to spread prejudice this is clearly not in line with the Buddha Dharma, as it promotes negative, disturbing mental factors.

[Pero]

Actually Pero it's not BS because what you are doing is creating a prejudice.

Hmmm, on reflection I think you may be right about that... However,

So if you are going to quote one side of the story, make sure you see the other side.

Killing women who are raped has no other side. Though I suppose you could make a case for killing people because someone burned a book, but it would still be stupid.

As I said these atrocities may have been done in the "name" of such and such a religion but if you were to investigate it is more than likely that it is a deep misinterpretation of what the religion itself taught.

Yes, sure, I don't disagree with that.

I have no idea of how much knowledge you have of Islam, but rest assured there are as many if not many more 'schools' of Islam as there are in the Buddha Dharma.

Yes my mistake to paint it with a general brush.

[gregkavarnos]

Though I am not at all involved with the Karma Kagyu, I have friends who are and they have little that is positive to say about the Shamra camp.

The Sharma camp? WTF is the Sharma camp? Just a second ago you were going off at Pero for prejuduced generalisations and then you come up with a statement like this? Check your mind my friend!

PS

Killing women who are raped has no other side. Though I suppose you could make a case for killing people because someone burned a book, but it would still be stupid.

Not all Muslims kill raped women Pero, just like not all Christians burned them at the stake. If you read the Koran I don't think you will find the Prophet Muhammed espousing this view.

What about Hindus that burn live widows on the dead husbands funeral pyre? Does that make Hinduism a dangerous religion? Did you read the link I posted a while back? Check that out and then come back to me with sweeping remarks and prejudices. A Shiite Muslim friend of mine once said to me: "I hate the way everybody judges all Muslims based on the actions of the extreme minority of fundamentalist suicide bombers. They are only ten-fifty people amongst 1.5 billion believers."

[mudra]

Greg - point taken, both re "Sharma" mispelling and lumping it as a "camp". Actually I do have quite a lot of detail but didn't think it was really wise to go into it here, so I just glossed it - and so here I am flat footed and reprimanded. Thank you.

[Pero]

Not all Muslims kill raped women Pero, just like not all Christians burned them at the stake. If you read the Koran I don't think you will find the Prophet Muhammed espousing this view.

What about Hindus that burn live widows on the dead husbands funeral pyre? Does that make Hinduism a dangerous religion? Did you read the link I posted a while back? Check that out and then come back to me with sweeping remarks and prejudices. A Shiite Muslim friend of mine once said to me: "I hate the way everybody judges all Muslims based on the actions of the extreme minority of fundamentalist suicide bombers. They are only ten-fifty people amongst 1.5 billion believers."

Yes, I know, I already said it was my mistake to paint with a general brush. Nevertheless this does happen and it has no place here (or should not have anywhere for that matter), in the same way burning women at the stake has no place here anymore, I don't think that is xenophobic or something.

Which link are you referring to?

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

Ole Nydal got the blessings from H.H. the Karmapa 16. to spread the Dharma (worldwide).

Well he did finished his mission and he did had success with his task, due to the blessings of H.H. the Gyalwa Karmapa 16, Rangjung Rigpe Dorje.
He is a blessed leader of many Dharma centres and a powerfull man.
Guess he did finish also the classical Kagyu 3,3,3 years retreat and can be called a Lama in the sense of teacher, not of monk because he is married.
All in all a modern teacher with good teachings, he does know his Dharma very well.
But to admire a teacher that is a personal case but the meaning of the words is here important, and that he can undoubtly all explain, to the point.

Best wishes
KY

[gregkavarnos]

Which link are you referring to?

This one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazrat_Babajan

Guess he did finish also the classical Kagyu 3,3,3 years retreat and can be called a Lama...

When and where did he finish?

[dzoki]

Let´s not drag Shamar Rinpoche into this. It is true that Ole is his student, but teacher is never responsible for the deeds of student. Student is always responsible for his own actions. Also Karma Kagyu does not operate like Catholic church - that there is some hierarch like a pope, who could remove lower hierarchs from their position. The split in Kamtsang lineage is a sad thing, but we, the members of dharmawheel are not going to help it by pointing our fingers at one or the other side of the "trench".
It´s ture that Ole has also his role in this divide, but this is far less controversial then what he teaches and how he conducts his dharma group. It is far less controversial, because quite frankly almost all prominent Karma Kagyu teachers regerdless of their allegiance to either of Karmapa candidates plays a role in this conflict. So when investigating Ole as a teacher, I would not pay such attention to this.
What needs to be paid attention to, in his case, is what he teaches to people and how he skilfully manipulates them so they don´t get the real Dharma. This is why people should avoid him.
Othervise I think, that with the exception of Ole and his students, who are teaching, there are great teachers on both sides of Karma Kagyu.

As for islam, my personal opinion is that it is not a threat to Dharma. Real threat to Dharma are buddhists, who do not follow the path properly, but instead only increase their emotions and ego. Karmapa Thaye Dorje also voiced the same opinion, when he was asked by a student of Ole, how should we fight against islam. Karmapa said: "We should not fight against islam, we should fight against our ego."

[kalden yungdrung]

Which link are you referring to?

This one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazrat_Babajan

Guess he did finish also the classical Kagyu 3,3,3 years retreat and can be called a Lama...

When and where did he finish?

Tashi delek Greg

Ole did finished this retreat but where, no lo se hombre.
Therefore is he not a regular Kagyu Lama or monk but a Lama in the sense of teacher, and that is what i realy know about him.
But don't ask me where he did do the retreat....

Did you follow may be some teachings of Kalu Rinpoche, when i may ask?


Best wishes
KY

[Astus]

This topic has been about Ole against Islam, Ole's title(s), Ole and the karmapas. What about Ole and his Buddhism? If there is a teacher to be checked on his status as a teacher, shouldn't it be his teachings investigated first of all? No wonder that it's easy to mislead people when nobody gives a damn about what is actually being taught.

[Pero]

This topic has been about Ole against Islam, Ole's title(s), Ole and the karmapas. What about Ole and his Buddhism? If there is a teacher to be checked on his status as a teacher, shouldn't it be his teachings investigated first of all? No wonder that it's easy to mislead people when nobody gives a damn about what is actually being taught.

Like I said before, when I looked at a few videos of his teachings on youtube it seemed to me that he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Also he seems like he's on kind of a "trip". For more details I'd have to watch him again and frankly I don't want to spend my time on it.

[Pero]

Which link are you referring to?

This one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazrat_Babajan

Guess he did finish also the classical Kagyu 3,3,3 years retreat and can be called a Lama...

When and where did he finish?

Ah so she was basically a HIndu.

[Astus]

Like I said before, when I looked at a few videos of his teachings on youtube it seemed to me that he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Also he seems like he's on kind of a "trip". For more details I'd have to watch him again and frankly I don't want to spend my time on it.

They have quote a lot of books, mainly authored by Ole himself. I haven't read any of them that's why I'm particularly interested if anyone actually knows his teachings and not just his biography.

[Malcolm]

Actually Pero it's not BS because what you are doing is creating a prejudice.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism, not to mention Capitalism and State Socialism, and even "Hinduism" and "Buddhism", are undead leviathans who will eat everything in their path and spare no one.

For a good history of the rise and fall of Leviathans since the city state of Ur, see "Against His-story, Against Leviathan" by Fredy Perlman.

[Jikan]

Actually Pero it's not BS because what you are doing is creating a prejudice.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism, not to mention Capitalism and State Socialism, and even "Hinduism" and "Buddhism", are undead leviathans who will eat everything in their path and spare no one.

For a good history of the rise and fall of Leviathans since the city state of Ur, see "Against His-story, Against Leviathan" by Fredy Perlman.

The Many-Headed Hydra by Linebaugh & Rediker is also worth a read.

I still object to the way in which Nydahl attempts to flame up anti-Islamic sentiment as a way to curry favor with his readers and listeners. Counterproductive is the gentlest term to use for it.

[Silent Bob]

Like I said before, when I looked at a few videos of his teachings on youtube it seemed to me that he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Also he seems like he's on kind of a "trip". For more details I'd have to watch him again and frankly I don't want to spend my time on it.

They have quote a lot of books, mainly authored by Ole himself. I haven't read any of them that's why I'm particularly interested if anyone actually knows his teachings and not just his biography.

For a look at the uncensored Ole, take a look at his second book "Riding the Tiger", but only if you have a strong stomach and can manage to do so without purchasing it and putting $$ in his pocket. He really lets it all hang out and doesn't hesitate to speak ill of Kagyu lamas, Trungpa Rinpoche and Kalu Rinpoche in particular, who've failed to show him the respect he thinks he deserves. I asked his publisher, Paul Clements of Blue Dolphin Press, about this issue after the book first came out, and was told, "Oh, I edited out the really inflammatory parts".

And no, he didn't do a three-year retreat, or anything approaching it. Both his honorific "Lama" title and his mandate to teach were bestowed many years ago by HH Shamar Rinpoche. IMHO, Ole is best ignored, though it is sad that his simplified "Happy Meal" interpretation of Vajrayana has found a receptive audience.

Cheers,
Chris

[heart]

I agree with Chris about Ole and Tobes about what is happening here in Europe. I am waiting for the first concentration camp to open. Pero, to think that Islam is inherently dangerous or evil is to ignore history.

Well that's not saying much, is there anything that's really inherently dangerous?
History says some US Christian idiots burn the Qur'an and then some Muslim idiots on the other side of the world start rioting and killing people. History also says that Muslims kill women who are raped. But you're free to think it's just a religion of peace, love and happiness or whatever.

People do a lot of shit in the name of religion, whatever religion you can think of also Buddhism. That makes Buddhism a bad religion? You should be able to look a little bit deeper. I am not particularly fond of Islam or any of the monotheistic religions but I do think they deserve respect.

/magnus

[Pero]

I agree with Chris about Ole and Tobes about what is happening here in Europe. I am waiting for the first concentration camp to open. Pero, to think that Islam is inherently dangerous or evil is to ignore history.

Well that's not saying much, is there anything that's really inherently dangerous?
History says some US Christian idiots burn the Qur'an and then some Muslim idiots on the other side of the world start rioting and killing people. History also says that Muslims kill women who are raped. But you're free to think it's just a religion of peace, love and happiness or whatever.

People do a lot of shit in the name of religion, whatever religion you can think of also Buddhism. That makes Buddhism a bad religion? You should be able to look a little bit deeper. I am not particularly fond of Islam or any of the monotheistic religions but I do think they reserve respect.

I have some respect for every religion actually. I have no respect for what people from various religions do.