Vajrapani and Vajrakilaya

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Vajrapani and Vajrakilaya

Postby udyan » Wed May 11, 2011 1:03 am

Hello, this is my first post on this forum. What is the difference between Vajrapani and Vajrakilaya with consort and without a consort (like 2 handed form). I guess this can be applied to any set of deities. Maybe this has to do with difference between various tantras, I am still somewhat confused of why is something considered a higher and lower tantra?
Seems like Vajrakilaya with consort is more complex and has some secret stuff, like mantra and phurba. I am trying to put it all into an understandable perspective for me.
Are they all used to clear away obstacles, does their energy differ, is potency of their mantra different, etc?
Hope that makes sense
Thank you.
Last edited by udyan on Fri May 13, 2011 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby ngodrup » Wed May 11, 2011 1:33 am

Well to begin with, Vajrakilaya is the wrathful form of Vajrasattva.
He also belongs to Vairochana's family of enlightened activity.

What distinguishes the levels of tantric practice is several factors
such as how one relates to the deity in question, whether the form
is visualized in front or oneself AS the the deity, the presence or
absence of generation and completion stages.
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 11, 2011 11:48 am

Another difference is that Vajrakilaya is a Dharmapala (Dharma Protector) whereas Vajrapani is a Bodhisattva and can take both wrathful or peaceful aspects.
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One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Dhondrub » Wed May 11, 2011 12:45 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Another difference is that Vajrakilaya is a Dharmapala (Dharma Protector) whereas Vajrapani is a Bodhisattva and can take both wrathful or peaceful aspects.
:namaste:


i am sorry but this is only half true. Vajrakilaya is a wrathful Yidam and not at all a Dharmapala.
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 11, 2011 1:32 pm

Dhondrub wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Another difference is that Vajrakilaya is a Dharmapala (Dharma Protector) whereas Vajrapani is a Bodhisattva and can take both wrathful or peaceful aspects.
:namaste:


i am sorry but this is only half true. Vajrakilaya is a wrathful Yidam and not at all a Dharmapala.
Really? According to which tradition?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby gnegirl » Wed May 11, 2011 1:40 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Dhondrub wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Another difference is that Vajrakilaya is a Dharmapala (Dharma Protector) whereas Vajrapani is a Bodhisattva and can take both wrathful or peaceful aspects.
:namaste:


i am sorry but this is only half true. Vajrakilaya is a wrathful Yidam and not at all a Dharmapala.
Really? According to which tradition?
:namaste:


The terma of Tsasum Lingpa for one.

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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Dhondrub » Wed May 11, 2011 1:45 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Dhondrub wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Another difference is that Vajrakilaya is a Dharmapala (Dharma Protector) whereas Vajrapani is a Bodhisattva and can take both wrathful or peaceful aspects.
:namaste:


i am sorry but this is only half true. Vajrakilaya is a wrathful Yidam and not at all a Dharmapala.
Really? According to which tradition?
:namaste:



According Chokling Tersar, Ratna Lingpa Terma, Terdak Lingpa, Vajrakilaya of the Khon lineage and any other lineage i know of.
Its quite save to say that Vajrakilaya is the main Nyingmapa Yidam.
But maybe there are exceptions? One never knows. According wich tradition VK is seen as a Dharmapala?

best

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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby heart » Wed May 11, 2011 1:52 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Dhondrub wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Another difference is that Vajrakilaya is a Dharmapala (Dharma Protector) whereas Vajrapani is a Bodhisattva and can take both wrathful or peaceful aspects.
:namaste:


i am sorry but this is only half true. Vajrakilaya is a wrathful Yidam and not at all a Dharmapala.
Really? According to which tradition?
:namaste:


According to which tradition is he a Dharmapala?

/magnus
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Jangchup Donden » Wed May 11, 2011 2:31 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Dhondrub wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Another difference is that Vajrakilaya is a Dharmapala (Dharma Protector) whereas Vajrapani is a Bodhisattva and can take both wrathful or peaceful aspects.
:namaste:


i am sorry but this is only half true. Vajrakilaya is a wrathful Yidam and not at all a Dharmapala.
Really? According to which tradition?
:namaste:


At least according to my tradition (coming from Barway Dorje/Chokgyur Lingpa), a form of Vajrakilaya was the last practice taught by Guru Rinpoche to Yeshe Tsogyal before he left to tame the rakshas. And it's most definitely not a protector practice. :)


But back to the original question:

Are they all used to clear away obstacles, does their energy differ, is potency of their mantra different, etc?


In essence they're the same. They're just Buddhas appearing in different forms according to the needs of those who practice them. Vajrakilaya most certainly clears away obstacles, but don't be mistaken, the point of any of these practices is to gain liberation and benefit sentient beings. As to the potency of the mantra, that's up to the devotion and ability of the student and any limitations they might incorrectly perceive in the deity -- but on the end of Vajrakilaya and Vajrapani, there's no difference in their ability as they've perfected the ability to help beings and the wisdom to do so correctly.
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 11, 2011 2:48 pm

I have been taught by my Karma Kagyu lama to see Vajrakilaya as a protector.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby heart » Wed May 11, 2011 3:22 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I have been taught by my Karma Kagyu lama to see Vajrakilaya as a protector.
:namaste:


Well you can think of Vajrakilaya practice as something that protects you but he is one of the main Yidams particular in the Nyingma tradition but also in the Kagyu and Sakya. Most Kagyus do the Sangthik Phurbha in the three-year retreat. That teaching was revealed by Chokgyur Lingpa for Jamgon Kongtrul the first.

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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 11, 2011 3:38 pm

Haven't finished ngondro yet, so no yidam practice (yet)!
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One will not attain the real result
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Dhondrub » Wed May 11, 2011 3:38 pm

Tara and Chenrezik are often referred to as Protectors in liturgies because they protect beings, this doesnt make them Dharmapalas( Chökyong) in the literal sense.
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 11, 2011 3:40 pm

Yes, now I see your point. In this sense you are 100% correct! :twothumbsup:
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby conebeckham » Wed May 11, 2011 5:34 pm

Vajrapani can take peaceful or wrathful forms. There are also various "levels" of Vajrapani--from lower to higher tantra. In some systems he's viewed as a protector, in some systems he's viewed as a Bodhisattva, and in some systems he's viewed as a completely enlightened Buddha, and as a yidam practice.
He represents the Body of Buddha--whereas Avalokiteshvara represents the speech, and Manjusri the mind.
He also represents the "Power" of the Buddha, whereas Avalokiteshvara represents the compassion, and Manjusri the wisdom.

In Nyingma traditions, Vajrakilaya is seen as the most extreme wrathful form of Vajrasattva. So, if Vajrasattva is the peaceful deity that represents purification, then Vajravidarana is seen as the semi-wrathful form, Vajrapani as the wrathful form, and Vajrakilaya as the extremely wrathful form.

Vajrakilaya is most definitely a yidam. Nyingmapas often take Vajrakilaya as their first yidam practice, and many maintain it as their main yidam practice. There are many Terma Lineages of Kilaya. Sakyas practice this as yidam practice, and they have a lineage that goes back to the Nyingma Kama. Even some Gelukpas practice Kilaya--HH The Dalai Lama maintains a practice of Lerab Lingpa's Yang Nying Pudri, which is a terma of Kilaya practice, and Namgyal Monastery maintains this practice. Karma Kagyupas practice Kilaya as a Yidam, as well. Most Karma Kagyu three year retreats will begin with one week of intensive Vajrakilaya practice, to purify and dispel obstacles and repair samaya breakage. Kilaya practice is also usually one of the short daily recitation requirements in a three year retreat, regardless of what the "main practice" is, along with daily protector recitations, vows, Chod practice, Sangcho, Surcho......
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby adinatha » Wed May 11, 2011 6:09 pm

As a Yidam, Vajrakilaya has the special talent of destroying any manner of harmful being. As Vajrakilaya, you are the dharmaphala. The dharmaphala/yidam line can be quite thin. For example, many dharmaphalas are also buddhas like in a form of vajrayogini, and in some dharmaphala sadhanas you visualize yourself as the dharmaphala and recite the mantra. Up to here, the practice can be exactly like yidam. A yidam deity is inseparable from bliss and emptiness of all the buddhas of the three times. That's the main point.

Then when you want to request the four buddha activities you "emanate" the yidam out into the world usually surrounded by all manner of kick ass buddha beings and request them to do their activities. Some Vajrakilayas have this element. After reciting the deity mantra, you transform into his "crush the bad guys" form and the visualization destroys obstacles. Additionally, Vajrakilaya comes with physical accessories, like the mighty kila (phurba) that you empower and when you have actualized the practice fully you are able to put Ghost Hunter Adventures out of business by bringing all ghoulies under your command!

It all depends on your intent and what you are trying to do. If you are trying to realize the view, then the deity aspect is what you need to do. If you need even more help because of discomfort in your body, bad luck and all that, then you want to become the mighty Phurba and incinerate your opponents! (With love and clarity).

The usual dharmaphala sadhana is merely an invocation and prayer. Maybe you visualize them in front of you, maybe not. It's interesting to practice in this gray area between deity and dharmaphala. It's good to scramble up your divisions and fixed conceptions. If you have a chance to do a Vajrayogini/dharmaphala or a Vajrakilaya/dharmaphala then do it. We are trying to become buddhas who have all these four activities. We not only want these activities performed on our behalf, but we want to perform them on others behalf as well. Remember, our bodhichitta is not only an aspiration, but also real action.
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby dzoki » Wed May 11, 2011 7:29 pm

One difference can be which particular class of arogant beings the practice mainly controls. For Vajrakilaya it is Maras, for Vajrapani Nagas if I remember right. They are both vajra family, although Vajrakilaya can also be karma family. Anyway if you practice either of these having received wang, lung a thri and with full heart the result will be excellent. Vajrapani also appears in the form of Visuddha Heruka in Kagye Mandala.
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 11, 2011 9:00 pm

conebeckham wrote:...then Vajravidarana is seen as the semi-wrathful form...
Nampar jompa?
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby conebeckham » Wed May 11, 2011 9:55 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
conebeckham wrote:...then Vajravidarana is seen as the semi-wrathful form...
Nampar jompa?
:namaste:


Exactly!
Otherwise known as Namjom.... :smile:
Often done first thing in the AM, along with Namgyalma zung....
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Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 11, 2011 10:38 pm

conebeckham wrote:...along with Namgyalma zung....
Ushnisha Vijaya?
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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