uncomfortable mantra question

[narraboth]

That is too superficial, one needs to understand the course of history of China with some more depth and substance to it. For example one could view it as a result of certain european philosophical and political ideas becoming known in China gradually, and then their having an inescapable effect. You can't just blame "Mao" for everything, it is a far too ignorant and superficial attitude.There is much interesting knowledge about chinese history available, one can easily gain more knowledge, if one wants to.

talking about understand china with more depth and substance, probably no one here more qualified than me. I am a chinese, and happen to be interested in my own country's history. I read and can read much more things than westerners. Although I still can't say I totally know what happened (I don't think anyone can), I guess I see thing more closely.
Mao's role is very debatable. But to be subjective (luckily I am not mainland chinese), Mao did many wrong things and caused a huge lost of human lives. Mostly happened in China rather than TIbet.

actually holding european view is not a bad thing, distance can lead to subjective. But surely one need to know many enough facts.

[username]

Most agree Mao was the biggest mass murderer in history. He also destroyed more cultural heritage than anyone during his cultral revolution. Dogmatic historians, in the minority, who are bound by their concepts and feel their judgments are the only valid ways should know they are prisoners of their concpets most of which are relatively false and ultimately all are false. There are many methodologies used by various historians and no one claims to have all the facts never mind the truth! Just as it is superficial to say things like Hitler was not the main factor responsible for the holocaust, etc. etc.

[Aemilius]

As Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso has put it, Mao is empty of inherent existence. Some people see him as a great hero. Some people see him as the opposite.

Still I think it is usefull to read the history.

"This being, that becomes", as Shakyamuni has put it,"from the ceasing of this, that ceases".

Chinese revolution is a causally conditioned phenomenon. This refers to the 12 links of dependent arising, as applied to human history.

_________
(Progressive Stages of meditation on Emptiness; Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso)

[username]

Yes, Mao was a fully enlightened buddha, so was Hitler or any coal powered electric power plant!

[Aemilius]

Yes, Mao was a fully enlightened buddha, so was Hitler or any coal powered electric power plant!

I don't agree with that. Emptiness of inherent nature doesn't rule out purposefulness of actions. This is often repeated in the teachings of Madhyamaka. The emptiness of inherent nature does not imply nihilistic world view.

[username]

When Mao or Hitler kill millions, it is self deception to make them secondary factors and not guilty. When Aemilius posts, he is the main factor responsible for that. When Aemilius doesn't see these basics it is foolish of username to expect him get sarcasm.

[Aemilius]

When Mao or Hitler kill millions, it is self deception to make them secondary factors and not guilty. When Aemilius posts, he is the main factor responsible for that. When Aemilius doesn't see these basics it is foolish of username to expect him get sarcasm.

I'm not defending Mao or Hitler. It is normal in world history that a person rises to power with all the good intentions, then the course of events is such that there appear obstacles to realizing his vision of better future for humanity and these obstacles have to be eradicated.
Tsingis Khan or Napoleon are forces or elements in a long chain of events, this is certainly the normal view in the study of history, and it is fundamental to buddhism too. We are products of an infinite number of past lives, past events, and past volitions. It would be useful to study and meditate on the process of dependent origination, to drive this principle home,...

[username]

From a historian methodology point of view you are not using any of the various main ones used by the academics. I doubt if you've even heard of them. As for the philosophical field of morality/ethics, never mind. This is just tea-house talk. From a dharma POV you're doing worse. Mixing up a bad basic misunderstanding of dependent origination level with personal basic made-up opinions. In the other thread too you had trouble understanding a basic prayer or a simple interview. On another dharmic category level, you're ignoring personal Karma and responsibility totally whether according to Prasangika innate self storage or alaya-vijnana's ground and as to a great perfect buddha's POV, forget about it! It's all like old farmers' coffe-house talk this time: "what do educated experts know? Nothing! We know everything, they should come ask us!" Good luck.

[Aemilius]

If you look up in Wikipedia or some other encyclopedia such key words as "Maoism" or "Chinese Communism", etc...
you'll see that they describe and explain the many causes and conditions that gave rise to these phenomena. And this is what I said, very briefly.

[username]

That is true for anything but doesn't redeem Mao as the biggest murderer in human history.

[gregkavarnos]

That is true for anything but doesn't redeem Mao as the biggest murderer in human history.

Actually you my find that Adolf Hitler and Chairman Mao probably did not personally kill (murder) that many people. Neither did they personally destroy all that much.

[username]

That is true for anything but doesn't redeem Mao as the biggest murderer in human history.

Actually you my find that Adolf Hitler and Chairman Mao probably did not personally kill (murder) that many people. Neither did they personally destroy all that much.

No they were killed by Charlie Chaplin and Bruce Lee Mao Hitler and Stalin are considered the biggest mass murderers in history. There are many opinions on how many millions were killed by them so anyone who claims to know for sure is wrong. Most were killed indirectly by forced artificial famines, gulags/camps, forced migrations, etc. Stalin is supposed to have caused the death of 10 to 20 million Soviets (excluding WWII) and Hitler's civilian casualties in Europe probably more. Mao was believed to have caused the premature death of 60 million or so by violence/policy but recently some researchers have put the number above 100 million but the stats are top secret in Beijing. Cultural revolution's destruction of heritage is by far unparalleled in history.

These were from his succession to the party's leadership during the civil war as a young man to his death. The worst periods' atrocities were carried out during "The Giant Leap Forward" and "The Cultural Revolution" specially by proxy for Mao via his wife and 3 others, the infamous gang of four, as he ruled. Mao himself expressed regret in private about the huge cultural devastation, not so much destroyed people, but said it was difficult to stop. He meant it was easier to let it happen for his ambitious aims. It was part of a giant trap he started, with let a thousand flowers bloom, to purge his potential top cadres rivals over many years. The casualties and destructions were incidental and didn't matter to him. I studied his war and party strategies and campaigns in detail about a decade ago. Classic articles on his campaigns are required reading in most military academies. He was an evil genius. We have ancient accounts with him as originally he was a yogi. Now he is in a hell. That is why tantrics are told about the snake in the bamboo, one should be extra careful when it comes to tantra.

[gregkavarnos]

So what you are saying is that Mao, Stalin and Hitler personally went out and killed millions of people?

The guys that dropped the atom bomb on Nagasaki were personally and directly responsible for the murder of 60-80,000 people and the ones that dropped it on Hiroshima were personally and directly responsible for the murder of 90-166,000 people.

I think you may find that three aforementioned dictators, put together, did not personally murder that many people. They may have ordered or masterminded, plotted and conceived of the murders (hell they may even have personally killed a few people themselves) but other people carried them out.

And lets not forget a couple of minor facts: 1. Mao did not just order the death of Tibetans, he was responsible for the murder of Chinese, Uighyurs, Mongolians, etc... During the Great Leap Forward 18-35 million people were executed and starved to death (some say up to 46 million). 2. The Cultutral Revolution did not just destroy Tibetan culture it also destroyed the Chinese cultural heritage (and those of other ethnic minorities). 3. According to some historians Mao actually lost control of the Cultural revolution at some point, it just snowballed out of his control.

[username]

Mao's wife never was never a threat to his power and was used by him. Mao was a bigger mastermind than even Deng (later) in setting factions against each other and neutralizing them before it was too late. CCP power politics is still extremely subtle and fascinating. But Mao was always in ultimate charge not his unintelligent wife who was used for a while. Secondly the overwhelming majority of his victims were not minorities but the Chinese. Thirdly you are saying those who pull the trigger are responsible only, so Hitler was not responsible for the Holocaust nor was Truman responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't know what to say to that!

[gregkavarnos]

Secondly the overwhelming majority of his victims were not minorities but the Chinese.

I agree 100%

Thirdly you are saying those who pull the trigger are responsible only, so Hitler was not responsible for the Holocaust nor was Truman responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't know what to say to that!

Of course they were responsible for the killings that happened but they did not do the killing. Hundreds of thousands of other individuals did the killing and an even greater number supported the killing. It is stupid to throw all the responsibility onto a couple of dictators. It exonerates or somehow reduces the responsibility of those directly involved in the destruction and murder. You see all those dictators could have thought of, and said, any number of things, but if they had no supporters then they just would have been lone madmen with paranoid delusions of grandeur. As insignificant and unimportant as you or I. Without the support and actions of their followers nothing would have happened, neither the Holocaust, nor the Gulags nor the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward. NOTHING!

Demonizing an individual blinds us to the reality of the situation. All of us bear responsibility for whatever occurs. ALL Americans bear responsibility for what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan for example. Not all of them have killed but all of them reap the rewards of the killing. BUT the karma vipakka for the killing itself will go to the killer. You see it takes a bunch of individuals to pick up weapons and go to war AND it takes a bunch of individuals to put down their weapons and promote peace.

[username]

If you read my posts you see I name them as primary main factors. I don't see how you deduced I redeemed the trigger pullers!

[Aemilius]

That is true for anything but doesn't redeem Mao as the biggest murderer in human history.

The wikipedia article about Mao Zedong says that Mao's political campaigns like The Great leap Forward and Cultural Revolution have caused the deaths of millions of people. In Buddhism the status of a deed is determined by the volition,
Mao Zedong's volition was Great Leap Forward, i.e. to renew the backward chinese society. Thus he is not a murderer at all, but a reformer who failed sometimes.
Time Magazine has named him among the 100 most influential people of the 20th century.
Wikipedia further says that China's population almost doubled during the period of Mao's leadership (from 550 million to 900 milllion), can we then count this in his favour?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

[Sönam]

That is true for anything but doesn't redeem Mao as the biggest murderer in human history.

The wikipedia article about Mao Zedong says that Mao's political campaigns like The Great leap Forward and Cultural Revolution have caused the deaths of millions of people. In Buddhism the status of a deed is determined by the volition,
Mao Zedong's volition was Great Leap Forward, i.e. to renew the backward chinese society. Thus he is not a murderer at all, but a reformer who failed sometimes.
Time Magazine has named him among the 100 most influential people of the 20th century.
Wikipedia further says that China's population almost doubled during the period of Mao's leadership (from 550 million to 900 milllion), can we then count this in his favour?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

no ... it's just chinese propaganda which is very active

[gnegirl]

The wikipedia article about Mao Zedong says that...

See...*thats* a problem. Wikipedia is not an authority on anything by its nature. Its useful for getting a direction, but not to be depended on.

[username]

No, not the biggest mass murderer in history. I respect Hu Yaobang and Zhao Ziyang and their surviving old friends I'm not at liberty to name on an open forum such as this.

Mao Zedong's volition was Great Leap Forward, i.e. to renew the backward chinese society. Thus he is not a murderer at all, but a reformer who failed sometimes.
Time Magazine has named him among the 100 most influential people of the 20th century.

Massacred millions are not mere statistics. Only mahasiddhas are beyond good and evil, consider compassion.