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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:47 pm

Will wrote:
Will: New Age is full of hooey - but in the case of cosmic or universal prana notion - they are innocent. The Upanishads taught it - not saying they are right, just a universal prana teaching goes way, way back.


Namdrol: It depends on whether you take the Brihadaryanka as allegorical (it is) or literally.


So the Prasna http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/prasna.html and the Chandogya are also allegorical?

Fiddlesticks - Swamis teach cosmic, universal prana all the time.


Yes, I know the Prasna. One it is a late Upanishad. Second, it is still metaphorical. It is not prāṇa in the sense you take it to mean.

You have to understand, that for Ancient Indians who wrote the upanishads, the world was alive. The sun was a living being, but not the moon. It is very complicated.

But the ancient Indian idea of prāṇa was nothing like the new age idea people have now.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:51 pm

adinatha wrote:
I will answer myself and refute you. Solidity in matter is an illusion caused by the spinning an electron, which creates an energetic cloud, and thus the mere appearance of solidity. There is no solidity in fact. It is just a charge. A charge is just a positive or negative. An electron is not technically a particle. So there is no atomic solidity.

At the level of subatomic particles, the are spins and lower than that waves. Not a wave in the motion sense. But a wave in the geometric sense. One can never detect motion and position simultaneously at this level. Again, no solidity. There is also no mass. Quantum people have no idea what accounts for mass. All they have are mathematical models.

Without motion, solidity or mass, the whole phenomenal world collapses. So there is certainly no possibility of observing liquidity, gaseousness or heat. At this level even space is not space. It all converges with information: constants and probabilities.

What does remain are charges: Positive (attracting), negative (repelling) and neither (neutral). These do have a correspondence with the three poisons. To my satisfaction, this here provides perfect explanatory and experiential understanding of why consciousness arises as an interdependence of these three things, why there is no such thing as a universal consciousness, and why there is liberation.


The five elements are inherent in consciousness; consciousness is inherent in the five elements. There are no levels of subatomic anything which exist outside the sadadhātu, consciousness, space, air, fire, water and earth.

If you want to go further, we could discuss how these gross expressions of the sadadhātu have their corollaries in terms of wisdom and the five lights.

Now you can see that even the subatomic level must have the five elements in order to be material, physical (rūpena).
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:02 pm

adinatha wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:"Illusory" is synonymous with what the ignorant perceive as "real".
:namaste:


Good so you should be able to see quite clearly why the Buddha's body did not require sustenance. You recall the Buddha told Ananda that if Ananda had asked him a third time not to die, he would have stopped dying.
:crying: Of course it required sustenance!
"I thought: 'Suppose I were to practice going altogether without food.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Dear sir, please don't practice going altogether without food. If you go altogether without food, we'll infuse divine nourishment in through your pores, and you will survive on that.' I thought, 'If I were to claim to be completely fasting while these devas are infusing divine nourishment in through my pores, I would be lying.' So I dismissed them, saying, 'Enough.'

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to take only a little food at a time, only a handful at a time of bean soup, lentil soup, vetch soup, or pea soup.' So I took only a little food at a time, only a handful at a time of bean soup, lentil soup, vetch soup, or pea soup. My body became extremely emaciated. Simply from my eating so little, my limbs became like the jointed segments of vine stems or bamboo stems... My backside became like a camel's hoof... My spine stood out like a string of beads... My ribs jutted out like the jutting rafters of an old, run-down barn... The gleam of my eyes appeared to be sunk deep in my eye sockets like the gleam of water deep in a well... My scalp shriveled & withered like a green bitter gourd, shriveled & withered in the heat & the wind... The skin of my belly became so stuck to my spine that when I thought of touching my belly, I grabbed hold of my spine as well; and when I thought of touching my spine, I grabbed hold of the skin of my belly as well... If I urinated or defecated, I fell over on my face right there... Simply from my eating so little, if I tried to ease my body by rubbing my limbs with my hands, the hair — rotted at its roots — fell from my body as I rubbed, simply from eating so little.

"People on seeing me would say, 'Gotama the contemplative is black.' Other people would say, 'Gotama the contemplative isn't black, he's brown.' Others would say, 'Gotama the contemplative is neither black nor brown, he's golden-skinned.' So much had the clear, bright color of my skin deteriorated, simply from eating so little.

"I thought: 'Whatever priests or contemplatives in the past have felt painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None have been greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the future will feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None will be greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the present are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
49. "I would go on all fours to the cow-pens when the cattle had gone out and the cowherd had left them, and I would feed on the dung of the young suckling calves. As long as my own excrement and urine lasted, I fed on my own excrement and urine. Such was my great distortion in feeding.
and
52. "Sariputta, there are certain recluses and brahmans whose doctrine and view is this: 'Purification comes about through food.'[19] They say: 'Let us live on kola-fruits,' and they eat kola-fruits, they eat kola-fruit powder, they drink kola-fruit water, and they make many kinds of kola-fruit concoctions. Now I recall having eaten a single kola-fruit a day. Sariputta, you may think that the kola-fruit was bigger at that time, yet you should not regard it so: the kola-fruit was then at most the same size as now. Through feeding on a single kola-fruit a day, my body reached a state of extreme emaciation. Because of eating so little my limbs became like the jointed segments of vine stems or bamboo stems. Because of eating so little my backside became like a camel's hoof. Because of eating so little the projections on my spine stood forth like corded beads. Because of eating so little my ribs jutted out as gaunt as the crazy rafters of an old roofless barn. Because of eating so little the gleam of my eyes sank far down in their sockets, looking like a gleam of water which has sunk far down in a deep well. Because of eating so little my scalp shriveled and withered as a green bitter gourd shrivels and withers in the wind and sun. Because of eating so little my belly skin adhered to my backbone; thus if I touched my belly skin I encountered my backbone, and if I touched my backbone I encountered my belly skin. Because of eating so little, if I tried to ease my body by rubbing my limbs with my hands, the hair, rotted at its roots, fell from my body as I rubbed.

53-55. "Sariputta, there are certain recluses and brahmans whose doctrine and view is this: 'Purification comes about through food.' They say: 'Let us live on beans'... 'Let us live on sesamum'... 'Let us live on rice,' and they eat rice, they eat rice powder, [81] they drink rice water, and they make various kinds of rice concoctions. Now I recall having eaten a single rice grain a day. Sariputta, you may think that the rice grain was bigger at that time, yet you should not regard it so: the rice grain was then at most the same size as now. Through feeding on a single rice grain a day, my body reached a state of extreme emaciation. Because of eating so little... the hair, rotted at its roots, fell from my body as I rubbed.

56. "Yet, Sariputta, by such conduct, by such practice, by such performance of austerities, I did not attain any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. Why was that? Because I did not attain that noble wisdom which when attained is noble and emancipating and leads the one who practices in accordance with it to the complete destruction of suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html
An illusory body requiring illusory sustenance, feeling illusory pain, getting illusory sick and then illusory flippin' dying!
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
I will answer myself and refute you. Solidity in matter is an illusion caused by the spinning an electron, which creates an energetic cloud, and thus the mere appearance of solidity. There is no solidity in fact. It is just a charge. A charge is just a positive or negative. An electron is not technically a particle. So there is no atomic solidity.

At the level of subatomic particles, the are spins and lower than that waves. Not a wave in the motion sense. But a wave in the geometric sense. One can never detect motion and position simultaneously at this level. Again, no solidity. There is also no mass. Quantum people have no idea what accounts for mass. All they have are mathematical models.

Without motion, solidity or mass, the whole phenomenal world collapses. So there is certainly no possibility of observing liquidity, gaseousness or heat. At this level even space is not space. It all converges with information: constants and probabilities.

What does remain are charges: Positive (attracting), negative (repelling) and neither (neutral). These do have a correspondence with the three poisons. To my satisfaction, this here provides perfect explanatory and experiential understanding of why consciousness arises as an interdependence of these three things, why there is no such thing as a universal consciousness, and why there is liberation.


The five elements are inherent in consciousness; consciousness is inherent in the five elements. There are no levels of subatomic anything which exist outside the sadadhātu, consciousness, space, air, fire, water and earth.

If you want to go further, we could discuss how these gross expressions of the sadadhātu have their corollaries in terms of wisdom and the five lights.

Now you can see that even the subatomic level must have the five elements in order to be material, physical (rūpena).


I get it. You are reasoning from the tantras. I understand how the dzogchen tantras explain wisdoms correspond to lights and lights to elements. The last statement you made is a conclusion drawn from these premises. I'm saying that science will laugh. I've devised an explanatory and experiential model that can deal with today's facts. I see why one would reason as you do, because there is evidence of physical bodies dissolving, and the five lights very clearly do arise to Atiyoga practitioner. The lights are a primordial existence and have no causal basis. The elements arise due to deluded mind of grasping at truth. That's just a why, not a how. How is what I said, and it closes the circle between yesterday and today. :alien:
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:17 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
adinatha wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:"Illusory" is synonymous with what the ignorant perceive as "real".
:namaste:


Good so you should be able to see quite clearly why the Buddha's body did not require sustenance. You recall the Buddha told Ananda that if Ananda had asked him a third time not to die, he would have stopped dying.
:crying: Of course it required sustenance!
"I thought: 'Suppose I were to practice going altogether without food.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Dear sir, please don't practice going altogether without food. If you go altogether without food, we'll infuse divine nourishment in through your pores, and you will survive on that.' I thought, 'If I were to claim to be completely fasting while these devas are infusing divine nourishment in through my pores, I would be lying.' So I dismissed them, saying, 'Enough.'

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to take only a little food at a time, only a handful at a time of bean soup, lentil soup, vetch soup, or pea soup.' So I took only a little food at a time, only a handful at a time of bean soup, lentil soup, vetch soup, or pea soup. My body became extremely emaciated. Simply from my eating so little, my limbs became like the jointed segments of vine stems or bamboo stems... My backside became like a camel's hoof... My spine stood out like a string of beads... My ribs jutted out like the jutting rafters of an old, run-down barn... The gleam of my eyes appeared to be sunk deep in my eye sockets like the gleam of water deep in a well... My scalp shriveled & withered like a green bitter gourd, shriveled & withered in the heat & the wind... The skin of my belly became so stuck to my spine that when I thought of touching my belly, I grabbed hold of my spine as well; and when I thought of touching my spine, I grabbed hold of the skin of my belly as well... If I urinated or defecated, I fell over on my face right there... Simply from my eating so little, if I tried to ease my body by rubbing my limbs with my hands, the hair — rotted at its roots — fell from my body as I rubbed, simply from eating so little.

"People on seeing me would say, 'Gotama the contemplative is black.' Other people would say, 'Gotama the contemplative isn't black, he's brown.' Others would say, 'Gotama the contemplative is neither black nor brown, he's golden-skinned.' So much had the clear, bright color of my skin deteriorated, simply from eating so little.

"I thought: 'Whatever priests or contemplatives in the past have felt painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None have been greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the future will feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None will be greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the present are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
49. "I would go on all fours to the cow-pens when the cattle had gone out and the cowherd had left them, and I would feed on the dung of the young suckling calves. As long as my own excrement and urine lasted, I fed on my own excrement and urine. Such was my great distortion in feeding.
and
52. "Sariputta, there are certain recluses and brahmans whose doctrine and view is this: 'Purification comes about through food.'[19] They say: 'Let us live on kola-fruits,' and they eat kola-fruits, they eat kola-fruit powder, they drink kola-fruit water, and they make many kinds of kola-fruit concoctions. Now I recall having eaten a single kola-fruit a day. Sariputta, you may think that the kola-fruit was bigger at that time, yet you should not regard it so: the kola-fruit was then at most the same size as now. Through feeding on a single kola-fruit a day, my body reached a state of extreme emaciation. Because of eating so little my limbs became like the jointed segments of vine stems or bamboo stems. Because of eating so little my backside became like a camel's hoof. Because of eating so little the projections on my spine stood forth like corded beads. Because of eating so little my ribs jutted out as gaunt as the crazy rafters of an old roofless barn. Because of eating so little the gleam of my eyes sank far down in their sockets, looking like a gleam of water which has sunk far down in a deep well. Because of eating so little my scalp shriveled and withered as a green bitter gourd shrivels and withers in the wind and sun. Because of eating so little my belly skin adhered to my backbone; thus if I touched my belly skin I encountered my backbone, and if I touched my backbone I encountered my belly skin. Because of eating so little, if I tried to ease my body by rubbing my limbs with my hands, the hair, rotted at its roots, fell from my body as I rubbed.

53-55. "Sariputta, there are certain recluses and brahmans whose doctrine and view is this: 'Purification comes about through food.' They say: 'Let us live on beans'... 'Let us live on sesamum'... 'Let us live on rice,' and they eat rice, they eat rice powder, [81] they drink rice water, and they make various kinds of rice concoctions. Now I recall having eaten a single rice grain a day. Sariputta, you may think that the rice grain was bigger at that time, yet you should not regard it so: the rice grain was then at most the same size as now. Through feeding on a single rice grain a day, my body reached a state of extreme emaciation. Because of eating so little... the hair, rotted at its roots, fell from my body as I rubbed.

56. "Yet, Sariputta, by such conduct, by such practice, by such performance of austerities, I did not attain any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. Why was that? Because I did not attain that noble wisdom which when attained is noble and emancipating and leads the one who practices in accordance with it to the complete destruction of suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html
An illusory body requiring illusory sustenance, feeling illusory pain, getting illusory sick and then illusory flippin' dying!
:namaste:


I can't BELIEVE you actually use the Pali Canon to support your point. Oh boy... {sigh} :coffee:
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Re: Elements

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:23 pm

Oh! So let's see if I can get this right. The Pali Canon Sutta do not include valid accounts of Buddha Shakyamunis life? Is this what you are saying?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Elements

Postby Enochian » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:27 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Oh! So let's see if I can get this right. The Pali Canon Sutta do not include valid accounts of Buddha Shakyamunis life? Is this what you are saying?
:namaste:



isn't the pali canon just one surviving recession of many that used to exist?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:27 pm

adinatha wrote:I get it. You are reasoning from the tantras. I understand how the dzogchen tantras explain wisdoms correspond to lights and lights to elements. The last statement you made is a conclusion drawn from these premises. I'm saying that science will laugh.



I don't care if scientists laugh -- their knowledge is as the coarsest, grossest level.



I've devised an explanatory and experiential model that can deal with today's facts. I see why one would reason as you do, because there is evidence of physical bodies dissolving, and the five lights very clearly do arise to Atiyoga practitioner. The lights are a primordial existence and have no causal basis. The elements arise due to deluded mind of grasping at truth. That's just a why, not a how. How is what I said, and it closes the circle between yesterday and today. :alien:


You cannot separate the pure sadhadhatu (wisdom and five lights) from the impure sadadhātu (consciousness and five elements). The difference is only vidyā or avidyā.

The sadadhātu are a model that is capable of encompassing any state of matter or mind, no matter how subtle or gross, macro, micro, nano, subatomic, etc.

It is inconsistent to say that the five elements function at the macro level of matter and are irrelevant at the subatomic level. The five elements are properties of all matter, period. The medicine tantra states:

"No formation without earth, no cohesion without water, no maturation without fire, no development without air, and no room for development without space."
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:38 pm

Enochian wrote:isn't the pali canon just one surviving recession of many that used to exist?
And thus...?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:28 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Oh! So let's see if I can get this right. The Pali Canon Sutta do not include valid accounts of Buddha Shakyamunis life? Is this what you are saying?
:namaste:


That is exactly what I am saying. Because they contain a deluded account of his life.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:13 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:I get it. You are reasoning from the tantras. I understand how the dzogchen tantras explain wisdoms correspond to lights and lights to elements. The last statement you made is a conclusion drawn from these premises. I'm saying that science will laugh.



I don't care if scientists laugh -- their knowledge is as the coarsest, grossest level.



I've devised an explanatory and experiential model that can deal with today's facts. I see why one would reason as you do, because there is evidence of physical bodies dissolving, and the five lights very clearly do arise to Atiyoga practitioner. The lights are a primordial existence and have no causal basis. The elements arise due to deluded mind of grasping at truth. That's just a why, not a how. How is what I said, and it closes the circle between yesterday and today. :alien:


You cannot separate the pure sadhadhatu (wisdom and five lights) from the impure sadadhātu (consciousness and five elements). The difference is only vidyā or avidyā.

The sadadhātu are a model that is capable of encompassing any state of matter or mind, no matter how subtle or gross, macro, micro, nano, subatomic, etc.

It is inconsistent to say that the five elements function at the macro level of matter and are irrelevant at the subatomic level. The five elements are properties of all matter, period. The medicine tantra states:

"No formation without earth, no cohesion without water, no maturation without fire, no development without air, and no room for development without space."


That's fine. Again, I take the unique position that models are useless. A relic of my philosophy degree. A phrase that came to me when falling asleep the other day was "Gnostic Skepticism." Gnostic because of the mind's nature, and skeptic because world of form has no provable basis. According to the philosophy of science, a la, Popper and Hume, there is no proving anything as true. One can conjecture theories, and if one can formulate an experiment to disprove that theory, so long as the theory is not disproven, it would be like a non-affirming negation that has not been negated yet. If a theory has no possible falsifiability, then it is useless psuedo science, like astrology. The gnostic part comes from Wittgenstein's infamous statement in his "Philosophical Investigations" that "there is a halo surrounding all thought." That charges are relatively fundamental is something disprovable, and as yet, has not been disproven. This provides a link between the science and the "halo" of experience. Future scientists could devise and experiment to test how physical body responds to the state of no attraction, and whether there is a change in the charges of their material substance. I would take the blasphemous dastardly position that vidya and avidya are a psuedo-science. Except for the "halo" of dharmadhatu, there are no wisdoms. The lights are not just five, there are many. The five lights and five wisdoms correspondence is an oversimplification of a freeform nature. Tantric science is part of an ancient explanatory model that has lost its relevance. New Age is not dead. It just has not been refined. Terminology, models and nature are freeform and unpatterned; the mind has its nature and so does everything else. It is the way it is because it was that way before. Cause and effect are only before and after. Habit is disappearance. All models are mere appearance and even the "laws of nature" are subject to being overruled by nature at any time. The mind is inextricably entangled with all this, due to the fundamentally entangled nature of nature, so we are the laws of nature. Being undistracted from the mind's nature is being unentangled. The body is like a snake with billions of knots in its tail so resting unentangled results in the tangles untangling in time. But because of the truly untrue nature of the universe, untangling is of no real consequence. And even if your medicine for nightmares is to blow on a string and keep it under your pillow, you can have sweet dreams. :shock:
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:35 pm

adinatha wrote:That's fine. Again, I take the unique position that models are useless.



Sadadhātu is the teaching of the Buddha.

N
Last edited by Tara on Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: deleted one sentence
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Tara » Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:10 am

Cleaning in progress, topic temporarily locked. *sigh*

Topic unlocked. Several posts have been deleted for either being off topic or of a disruptive nature.

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Re: Elements

Postby Sherab » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:02 am

It is very clear from the discussion here that Namdrol's knowledge of modern science is very weak. Because of that, he is not able to see that words, such as solidity, motility etc, that are used to represent the Buddhist elements cannot possibly carry the same meaning when they are used in the context of modern science.

Therefore, it is not possible for him to understand how someone with a background in the hard sciences will find his statement that the internal element of air is not different from atmospheric air as understood in modern physics as rather incoherent. Another example would be the incoherence in saying that solidity, etc still applies at sub-atomic level. At that level, in modern physics, one talk about properties of spin, charge, angular momentum etc. Properties such as solidity, etc, really makes no sense at all and are not found. Even the sharp distinction between existence and non-existence of a sub-atomic particle becomes blurred.

So it is best to recognize that where Namdrol is coming from is purely from his knowledge of Buddhist texts and not expect him to be able to reconcile the terms used in Buddhist texts with the same terms that are used in modern science.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:18 am

Sherab wrote:Because of that, he is not able to see that words, such as solidity, motility etc, that are used to represent the Buddhist elements cannot possibly carry the same meaning when they are used in the context of modern science.



I don't presume that they would.

You are missing the basic point of what I am saying. What I am saying is that if it is mental or material in any sense it is subsumed under the categories outlined by the Buddha. The description of the four elements describe all material states.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Sherab » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:30 am

Namdrol wrote:You are missing the basic point of what I am saying.

And you have missed mine. Let's just leave it as it is.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:33 am

Sherab wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You are missing the basic point of what I am saying.

And you have missed mine. Let's just leave it as it is.



No, I understood your point very clearly. You don't feel that the five elements taught by the Buddha can be applied below the atomic level, or even at the atomic level. You feel my assertion that they can points to a lack of understanding physics on my part.

I understood your point. I simply don't agree with you.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Enochian » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:48 am

Sherab wrote:It is very clear from the discussion here that Namdrol's knowledge of modern science is very weak.



:crazy:

Actually this is not a "modern science" forum.

This is a buddhism forum.

Can your modern science explain rainbow body phenomenon?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Elements

Postby Sherab » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:57 am

Namdrol wrote:You don't feel that the five elements taught by the Buddha can be applied below the atomic level, or even at the atomic level.

Despite my posts here and elsewhere, you have not got what I thought. Therefore it is better for us to leave it as it is.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:04 am

Sherab wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You don't feel that the five elements taught by the Buddha can be applied below the atomic level, or even at the atomic level.

Despite my posts here and elsewhere, you have not got what I thought. Therefore it is better for us to leave it as it is.



After a certain point, one must assume if one is not getting one's point across, either the other person is hopelessly stupid (which I am not), or that one is not explaining one's point clearly (which seems to be the case).

Incidentally, I understand that people trained in hard sciences would find it very difficult to take my point of view seriously re: the above.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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