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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Will » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:26 am

adinath: By the way, it is not respectful to respond in a dismissive conclusory fashion.

Namdrol's strong suit is not respect for every remark.

Namdrol: There is no prāṇa as a separate entity. This is a huge misconception. There is a prāṇa vāyu i.e. the breath we inhale.
As far not breathing during certain states of samadhi -- during these state the respiration is so slight it is not noticed. It is still happening however.


But prana could be with or within water or deep in the earth or on Mars; it need not be confined only to the air on the surface of this planet? As for slight respiration through the skin; what about yogis buried for 2 or 3 months, surely they would have used up all the air-prana by then.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:23 am

:popcorn:
CAW!
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:34 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
It doesn't hold up in subatomic land.


Of course it does.


How? ...




Because there is motility, solidity, heat, and moisture (cohesion) even at these levels of observation.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:39 pm

Namdrol wrote:This is nothing mysterious. Unfortunately, Buddhists have been unwittingly influenced by new age concepts about channels, cakras and so on.
Bloody long haired hippy new agers!
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:45 pm

Namdrol wrote:As far not breathing during certain states of samadhi -- during these state the respiration is so slight it is not noticed. It is still happening however.
This is what all the anapanasati manuals say too. No breath, no life.
But prana could be with or within water or deep in the earth or on Mars; it need not be confined only to the air on the surface of this planet? As for slight respiration through the skin; what about yogis buried for 2 or 3 months, surely they would have used up all the air-prana by then.
Why? Bodily function is minimised almost to zero, mind function is basically frozen, what would their breath be expended on?
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:40 pm

Will wrote:
But prana could be with or within water or deep in the earth or on Mars; it need not be confined only to the air on the surface of this planet? As for slight respiration through the skin; what about yogis buried for 2 or 3 months, surely they would have used up all the air-prana by then.


Hi Will,

There is no "prāṇa" out there in genera separate from the vāyu element. Prāṇa is just a name for the vāyu that supports life in the body of a sentient being.

The idea that prāṇa is some universal life force is exactly the new age idea that I am criticizing.

N
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby cloudburst » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:27 pm

Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:
so it is your claim that you actually fart out your downward-voiding wind? Interesting proposition. What happens when you ejaculate, also caused by the downward-voiding wind?



Not my claim -- clearly explained in Kalacakra, etc. And yes, ejaculation, urination, menstruation, happen because of the apana vāyu (thur sel rlung)


It seems you are overly literal when claiming that there is no difference between inner and outer wind.


No, I am just well trained in both Vajrayāna (Lamdre, Dzogchen) and Tibetan medicine.

N


So the Kalachakra Tantra explains that when you fart, you expel your downward-voiding wind? Would you care to cite a few lines?

Also, I can see how you may have misunderstood my question above. I was asking... since ejaculation (and of course urination etc) are caused by the dvw, what are you proposing in these cases? In the case of flatulence, you explain that the dvw moves downward and leaves the body. What is your proposition with respect to any of the other eliminations through lower doors, as they are not composed of air?

Of course they "happen becasue of the" dvw, but your claim that the dvw is actually the air that moves when we are flatulent is a misleading example as it does not mapo on to any other function of the dvw. My question is: how to explain in the case of movement that is not physical air, but rather liquid, etc.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:45 pm

cloudburst wrote:So the Kalachakra Tantra explains that when you fart, you expel your downward-voiding wind? Would you care to cite a few lines?

Also, I can see how you may have misunderstood my question above. I was asking... since ejaculation (and of course urination etc) are caused by the dvw, what are you proposing in these cases? In the case of flatulence, you explain that the dvw moves downward and leaves the body. What is your proposition with respect to any of the other eliminations through lower doors, as they are not composed of air?

Of course they "happen becasue of the" dvw, but your claim that the dvw is actually the air that moves when we are flatulent is a misleading example as it does not mapo on to any other function of the dvw. My question is: how to explain in the case of movement that is not physical air, but rather liquid, etc.
Just because something is a liquid does not mean that it is composed only of the water element. You are being too literal here. The water element is responsible for the "cohesiveness" of physical phenomena (not their liquidness), earth for how "stable" or "solid" they are, wind for how "mobile" they are and fire for their "temperature". All phenomena contain ALL of the mahabhuta, just their proportions vary.

Ice, for example, has very little fire and air, some water and some earth.
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby cloudburst » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:20 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
cloudburst wrote:So the Kalachakra Tantra explains that when you fart, you expel your downward-voiding wind? Would you care to cite a few lines?

Also, I can see how you may have misunderstood my question above. I was asking... since ejaculation (and of course urination etc) are caused by the dvw, what are you proposing in these cases? In the case of flatulence, you explain that the dvw moves downward and leaves the body. What is your proposition with respect to any of the other eliminations through lower doors, as they are not composed of air?

Of course they "happen becasue of the" dvw, but your claim that the dvw is actually the air that moves when we are flatulent is a misleading example as it does not mapo on to any other function of the dvw. My question is: how to explain in the case of movement that is not physical air, but rather liquid, etc.
Just because something is a liquid does not mean that it is composed only of the water element. You are being too literal here. The water element is responsible for the "cohesiveness" of physical phenomena (not their liquidness), earth for how "stable" or "solid" they are, wind for how "mobile" they are and fire for their "temperature". All phenomena contain ALL of the mahabhuta, just their proportions vary.

Ice, for example, has very little fire and air, some water and some earth.
:namaste:


If you read the discussion carefully, you will see that you are precisely making my point here, please direct this comment to Namdrol.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Will » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:23 pm

N: The idea that prāṇa is some universal life force is exactly the new age idea that I am criticizing.


I get it - the non-universal notion - not sure I agree yet. Will have to look again at the Chi of China & Prana of Indian thought for support for non-universal notion. Prana is in the Sun for example, where there is no air or breath.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:45 pm

cloudburst wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:
so it is your claim that you actually fart out your downward-voiding wind? Interesting proposition. What happens when you ejaculate, also caused by the downward-voiding wind?



Not my claim -- clearly explained in Kalacakra, etc. And yes, ejaculation, urination, menstruation, happen because of the apana vāyu (thur sel rlung)


It seems you are overly literal when claiming that there is no difference between inner and outer wind.


No, I am just well trained in both Vajrayāna (Lamdre, Dzogchen) and Tibetan medicine.

N


So the Kalachakra Tantra explains that when you fart, you expel your downward-voiding wind? Would you care to cite a few lines?

Also, I can see how you may have misunderstood my question above. I was asking... since ejaculation (and of course urination etc) are caused by the dvw, what are you proposing in these cases? In the case of flatulence, you explain that the dvw moves downward and leaves the body. What is your proposition with respect to any of the other eliminations through lower doors, as they are not composed of air?

Of course they "happen becasue of the" dvw, but your claim that the dvw is actually the air that moves when we are flatulent is a misleading example as it does not mapo on to any other function of the dvw. My question is: how to explain in the case of movement that is not physical air, but rather liquid, etc.


We are not communicating well.

That flatus is the downward voiding wind is a fact. The apana-vāyu is also responsible for moving liquids out of the body such as sperm, urine and so forth, as well as solids such as feces. It's location in the body is the pelvic region.

There is a passage in the Kalacakra that describes the anus as being the lower end of the central channel. The famous Doctor Zurkar Lodo Gyalpo explains the following in his "Oral Advice of the Grandfathers", his commentary on the formation of the body chapter in the Explanatory Medicine Tantra

This verse (from the Explanatory Tantra) "The channels of formation divide into three from the navel" demonstrates the lalanā, rasanā and the lower end of the avadhūtī. The channel that creates kapha, etc., is the lalanā through which the element of water moves. The channel that creates blood and so on is the rasanā through which the element of fire moves. The channel that creates vāyu and so on is the lower part of the avadhūti. The lower ends of the rasanā and lalanā are demonstrated through implication. These three tips both below and above the navel are applied according to the intention of the Shri Kalacakra i.e. the Adibuddha states:

Those have three tips below,
likewise, three tips above.
The tip of Rahu is present in the center,
the tip of Surya is on the right,
the tip of Candra is on the left.
The vāyus of water, fire and space
move feces, urine, and sukra
through the bottom of the right, left, and central [channels].
The channels interlaced like a chain
are the three pathways of the prāṇa and the apaṇa.

The great commentary states "In terms of the the so called 'channel interlaced into a chain which runs to the location of amrita', the amritaṇāḍī is in forehead. "Moving there" is moving into the location of amrita i.e. the lalanā, the rasanā, and the avadhūtī. Since those are interlaced like a chain, having made three pathways between the navel and the heart, once again they intersect in the center of the heart in the center of the avadhūtī. The lalanā and the rasanā move to the right and left sides. After that, between the heart and the throat, they make three paths. In the same way they are three paths between the throat and the forehead, and likewise between the forehead and crown. Having made three paths four times, the lalanā ends in twelve different locations other from the left nostril. The rasanā from the right (nostril). The avadhūtī leaves simultaneously from both nostrils. Likewise, having made three paths below the navel and again below the secret cakra, between feces and urine moving from the right and the left, and in the center of the secret lotus there is the conch nāḍī. Below the conch nāḍī, the mahāmalā (great waste i.e. rectum) channel moves from the center. From penis or the vagina, the urine channel moves from the left, and the seminal channelfrom right."



Incidentally, in the Blue Beryl, Desri Sangye Gyatso reproduces the above passage more or less in its entirety without comment.

I should think the meaning of all of this is rather clear.

There are three vāyus that are subsets of the apana vāyu. The apāna vāyu in general governs the lower ends of the three channels. The three lower channels are the rectum i.e. the lower end of the central channel; the urinary tract i.e. the lower end of the lalanā, and the channel which emits semen or ovum i..e the lower end of the rasanā channel.

When someone has an excess of apana vāyu, they fart, or have diarrhea, etc. There are many disorders they have have connected with the three lower passages. We take wind in, some of it is expelled from the lower end of the body as flatus.

However, I will allow that my understanding of many tantric topics has been altered considerably through my studies of Tibetan medicine.

N
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:48 pm

cloudburst wrote:
If you read the discussion carefully, you will see that you are precisely making my point here, please direct this comment to Namdrol.


This is a given. Non-controversial. Within the body there are five elemental vāyus. All material phenomena contain all four elements in some proportion. I was under the impression I was not talking to Buddhist Kindegardeners where every detail has to spelled out in order to prevent someone from having an objection.

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:05 pm

Will wrote:
N: The idea that prāṇa is some universal life force is exactly the new age idea that I am criticizing.


I get it - the non-universal notion - not sure I agree yet. Will have to look again at the Chi of China & Prana of Indian thought for support for non-universal notion. Prana is in the Sun for example, where there is no air or breath.


Do you have a citation for this?

The meaning of prāṇa is "life". If there life in the sun?

The Vajramālā states very plainly:

The characteristic of the the element of air (vāyu)
is the vāyu (air) pervading the six cakras,
always present in the dharmacakra,
called prāṇa since it pervades migrating beings"


And:

The wheel of vāyu is explained to be prāṇa.

And apropos of the Kalacakra citation in the last post it states:

Depending on upper or lower,
the major vāyus, prāṇa and apana are located.


Prāṇa vāyu is furthere defined in this text:

From the traces of the all-basis consciousness
arises the stream of consciousness;
the affliction [consciousness] is the prāṇa vāyu.


So at least in Buddhist texts these things are very precisely defined.

N
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Enochian » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:06 pm

What I am seeing by Namdrol is similar to Hindu tantric stuff. I am in communication with James Mallinson Phd, an academic author on this sort of stuff. `
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:07 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:This is nothing mysterious. Unfortunately, Buddhists have been unwittingly influenced by new age concepts about channels, cakras and so on.
Bloody long haired hippy new agers!


Greg -- I am not saying that there there are no cakra and channels and so on -- of course there are.

What I am saying is that the way Western Buddhists relate to these things has been very much filtered through a new age lens. Part of the reason for this is that in Tibet, there is an understanding of physical anatomy which supports how so called "tantric anatomy" is understood. These kinds of issues are discussed in great detail in Tibetan medicine.

But we lack this background, culturally speaking. So we come up with many strange ideas.

N
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Caz » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:18 pm

Now I know why Super secret Tantric farting has been kept secret all these years :rolling:
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Enochian » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:which runs to the location of amrita', the amritaṇāḍī is in forehead.

N



This happens to be a personal obsession of mine. I have been trying to access this amritanadi for years, mainly through kechari mudra and kumbhaka, which is supported by the critical edition of the Khecarividya Of Adinatha, translated by scholar James Mallinson PhD.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:40 pm

cloudburst wrote:If you read the discussion carefully, you will see that you are precisely making my point here, please direct this comment to Namdrol.
I have read the discussion carefully! So why then are you carrying on "like a two bob watch" about whether farting or ejaculating has to do with air? If you understand the abovementioned basics and the fact that both the above activities have to do with motion, then obviously there will be a fair amount of air involved. Where is your (soya) beef?
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:44 pm

Enochian wrote:This happens to be a personal obsession of mine. I have been trying to access this amritanadi for years, mainly through kechari mudra and kumbhaka, which is supported by the critical edition of the Khecarividya Of Adinatha, translated by scholar James Mallinson PhD.
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:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby cloudburst » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:
We are not communicating well.


agree.

Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:
so it is your claim that you actually fart out your downward-voiding wind? Interesting proposition. What happens when you ejaculate, also caused by the downward-voiding wind?



Not my claim -- clearly explained in Kalacakra, etc. And yes, ejaculation, urination, menstruation, happen because of the apana vāyu (thur sel rlung)



you assert above that the Kalachakra Tantra claims that flatus is DVW, but your citation does not bear on this claim. I agree that these winds perform the functions ascribed to them in the Kalachakra, that has never been in dispute. Your claim that the inner winds are the same as the outer winds has not been borne out, despite various lines of argument. That is my contention.

Namdrol wrote:That flatus is the downward voiding wind is a fact.


unsupported personal contention.

Namdrol wrote:The apana-vāyu is also responsible for moving liquids out of the body such as sperm, urine and so forth, as well as solids such as feces. It's location in the body is the pelvic region.


agree.

Namdrol wrote:There is a passage in the Kalacakra that describes the anus as being the lower end of the central channel. The famous Doctor Zurkar Lodo Gyalpo explains the following in his "Oral Advice of the Grandfathers", his commentary on the formation of the body chapter in the Explanatory Medicine Tantra



Interesting. This is unusual system of explanation may offer some hope for homosexual men who wish to engage in karmamudra.

Namdrol wrote:However, I will allow that my understanding of many tantric topics has been altered considerably through my studies of Tibetan medicine.


I have no opinion on he accuacy of these lineage

ps- why do you type "N" at the end of every post? This is obviously unnecessary, is it a stylistic affectation?
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