Elements

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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:54 pm

Here's what I just don't understand at all. How is it that like in Lord Jigten Sumgon's version of the 7 Limb Prayer "Ser Khangma," just by reading, one's achieves a very high samadhi, which is blissful and you don't feel hungry? I feel it is just interdependence with this teacher's mind. He has actualized some wisdom and when we enter that mandala through devotion we gain all that merit and power. This is the same effect I get just by reading Longchenpa's words. I feel these two are very special masters. They have gone to the breach of "relative" and "ultimate" and joined them together into one singular realization of total wisdom. In fact, just now as we speak, just thinking of them, generates a feeling subtler to ojas and blissful. Even my eyelids will droop and my whole body feels so good. If I don't think about them, it's gone. If I think about them it's there. It's pure magic. Now any sutra I read, especially Avatamsaka Sutra, it comes over me. Anything that involves think about or visualizing countless buddhas. Then it happens too the same thing even if I just visualize or even think about "all sentient beings throughout space." It's just the dharmakaya I say!
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:55 pm

Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:KDL was cool for sure, and he had a very powerful blessings.. He probably got to the 3rd vision or so.. I dunno I don't think he manifested RB from what I heard although it was his wish.. Anyway I have recieved more teachings from the Drikung Kagyu this life.. and I view there approach as being equal with Nyingthig, despite what Longchempa might have to say about that.



KDL went though all four visions to the end. He told me this personally. Not only me, but others. He did realize rainbow body. Rainbow body, in Dzogchen, does not mean that your body disappears. This is a huge misconception.


This is a perfect case to understand. Please explain the matter in which his body of light manifested. I'm very eager to learn more of such situations.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:56 pm

adinatha wrote:Here's what I just don't understand at all. How is it that like in Lord Jigten Sumgon's version of the 7 Limb Prayer "Ser Khangma," just by reading, one's achieves a very high samadhi, which is blissful and you don't feel hungry?


Not feeling hungary can be a symptom of a vata imbalance.

It can be a sign of faith.

It can be a sign of balanced doshas because of samadhi.

There are many reasons why one might not feel hungary.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:01 pm

***
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:08 pm

Namdrol wrote:it is stupidly simple -- once you reach the end of the fourth vision, everything is a display of the five lights, as it is put in the classical text earth, rocks, mountains and cliffs vanish and instead one sees only the five pure lights.

Sometimes, your body vanishes. Mostly, it just shrinks after death. For example, Thangtong Gyalpo achieved rainbow body. His kudung is still shrinking. It exists in a small monastery in somewhere in Nepal. A Lama friend of mine knows where it is and has seen it.

In other words, rainbow body in essence is actually a realization.

N


Okay but what happened to KDL's body?

As a side note, it is possible to get to the fourth appearance of Togal, not having been in rigpa, and having the whole thing be a total waste. I know of two such practitioners who this happened to. When they went to their lama and told them they'd finished, they were laughed at. 12 years of solitary retreat, wasted. That's so scary, I can't stand it. Get your rigpa right folks.

I don't doubt KDL did it all the right way. He was a master...
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:10 pm

Namdrol wrote:It can be a sign of faith. .


Here's what I mean. What the HELL is faith? It's not even a thought. What is it? It's nothing... But it connects you to the dharmakaya.
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Re: Elements

Postby tamdrin » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:17 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:it is stupidly simple -- once you reach the end of the fourth vision, everything is a display of the five lights, as it is put in the classical text earth, rocks, mountains and cliffs vanish and instead one sees only the five pure lights.

Sometimes, your body vanishes. Mostly, it just shrinks after death. For example, Thangtong Gyalpo achieved rainbow body. His kudung is still shrinking. It exists in a small monastery in somewhere in Nepal. A Lama friend of mine knows where it is and has seen it.

In other words, rainbow body in essence is actually a realization.

N


Okay but what happened to KDL's body?

As a side note, it is possible to get to the fourth appearance of Togal, not having been in rigpa, and having the whole thing be a total waste. I know of two such practitioners who this happened to. When they went to their lama and told them they'd finished, they were laughed at. 12 years of solitary retreat, wasted. That's so scary, I can't stand it. Get your rigpa right folks.



there is a thread in the dzogchen forum about a couple who claimed to have reached the end of the thogal path and are writing books about all the "cool visions" they have.. maybe it is the same people you are thinking of...
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:19 pm

adinatha wrote:
Okay but what happened to KDL's body?



It is encased in a stupa.

As a side note, it is possible to get to the fourth appearance of Togal, not having been in rigpa...


No, it isn't.


I know of two such practitioners who this happened to. When they went to their lama and told them they'd finished, they were laughed at. 12 years of solitary retreat, wasted. That's so scary, I can't stand it.


They mistook increase of experience for exhaustion of dharmatā. They got impatient, and then published a nice picture book. Now they are running workshops on Dzogchen.




I don't doubt KDL did it all the right way. He was a master...


Yes, he taught me everything, soups to nuts.

N
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:38 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:It can be a sign of faith. .


Here's what I mean. What the HELL is faith? It's not even a thought. What is it? It's nothing... But it connects you to the dharmakaya.



Faith is part of the samskara skandha. It is also part of the five powers, the five strengths. Faith is connected with the indriyas that lead to nirvana.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:As a side note, it is possible to get to the fourth appearance of Togal, not having been in rigpa...


No, it isn't.


I think explanations differ drastically on this point. I understand your perspective of the systematic approach. I feel that it would be wonderful if things were this well modeled. But I'm afraid I don't agree they are.


I know of two such practitioners who this happened to. When they went to their lama and told them they'd finished, they were laughed at. 12 years of solitary retreat, wasted. That's so scary, I can't stand it.


They mistook increase of experience for exhaustion of dharmatā. They got impatient, and then published a nice picture book. Now they are running workshops on Dzogchen.


Well, they apparently grasped at rigpa's appearances as truth. I think different teachers will explain this point in different ways. The version I heard was that they needed to start from scratch, not just finish to the subsequent level. They wouldn't accept that so they bailed.


I don't doubt KDL did it all the right way. He was a master...


Yes, he taught me everything, soups to nuts.

N


A very cautionary tale is when someone's well-trained students can go so far and get no where. Something I try to keep in mind.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:10 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:As a side note, it is possible to get to the fourth appearance of Togal, not having been in rigpa...


No, it isn't.


I think explanations differ drastically on this point. I understand your perspective of the systematic approach. I feel that it would be wonderful if things were this well modeled. But I'm afraid I don't agree they are.



As in so many things, we will have agree to disagree on this point.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:17 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:It can be a sign of faith. .


Here's what I mean. What the HELL is faith? It's not even a thought. What is it? It's nothing... But it connects you to the dharmakaya.



Faith is part of the samskara skandha. It is also part of the five powers, the five strengths. Faith is connected with the indriyas that lead to nirvana.

N


This is a lower vehicle explanation.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:24 pm

adinatha wrote:
This is a lower vehicle explanation.


You are a funny guy.

Anyway, I am quite sure in Drigung the 37 bodhipakṣa dharmas are considered important. Even high and mighty Dzogchen practitioners like you have mental factors.

Anyway, whatever happened to your dgongs gcig attitude? Remember, according to Jigten Sumgon, all yānas have the same intention.

N
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-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Enochian » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:24 pm

Was death optional for KDL?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:58 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
This is a lower vehicle explanation.


You are a funny guy.

Anyway, I am quite sure in Drigung the 37 bodhipakṣa dharmas are considered important. Even high and mighty Dzogchen practitioners like you have mental factors.

Anyway, whatever happened to your dgongs gcig attitude? Remember, according to Jigten Sumgon, all yānas have the same intention.

N


Ha. Same direction. Doesn't mean all words mean the same thing for all purposes. Faith in Hinayana and faith in Vajrayana have totally different power. The guru in Vajrayana is buddha, the embodiment of the lineage. The spiritual friend in Hinayana is just a learned mentor. In Hinayana faith is just one factor. In Vajrayana, devotion alone can take you all the way. Without transmission, just reading Gongchig will lead you to believe it is saying things it isn't. The meaning of single intent is that all wheels are contained in each other, the seed of a higher vehicle is always present in the lower, and the higher vehicle always contains the lower completely. Finally, the ultimate view contains all three without being touched by any, so that the conceptual and nonconceptual have no difference. It's a freeform galaxy of the buddha mandala. I might be a funny man, but my teacher is no clown. I'm nothing special, but my lineage is supreme.
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Re: Elements

Postby username » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:58 pm

Jigten Sumgon's chulen levels seem similar to tri-kayas' taught by Dzogchen masters and I wouldn't be surprised if his most secret written and/or whispered instructions is equivalent to dharmakaya chulen's. Like the parallel semde and essence mahamudra. On getting the fourth vision without rigpa it is probably possible. The last second of a malevolent entity being wrathfully liberated into the ground but then again technically that last moment is also rigpa.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:00 pm

username wrote:Jigten Sumgon's chulen levels seem similar to tri-kayas' taught by Dzogchen masters and I wouldn't be surprised if his most secret written and/or whispered instructions is equivalent to dharmakaya chulen's. Like the parallel semde and essence mahamudra. On getting the fourth vision without rigpa it is probably possible. The last second of a malevolent entity being wrathfully liberated into the ground but then again technically that last moment is also rigpa.


I just know you are awesome. Who is you teacher? If you don't mind saying? You don't have to. I respect your quiet enjoyment of practice.
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Re: Elements

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:08 pm

adinatha wrote:This is a lower vehicle explanation.
This type of attitude will defintiely help you win friends and influence people (and stinks of pride).
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:19 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
adinatha wrote:This is a lower vehicle explanation.
This type of attitude will defintiely help you win friends and influence people (and stinks of pride).
:namaste:


Maybe that is your impression. I'm sorry about that. Truly. Dharma has levels in all respects. Levels in description, approach, and mind. Outer, inner, secret, ultimate. In the sphere of the nonconceptual, there is an intuitive language all its own. The language and methods of the lower approaches can be employed for helping. They can also be discarded. I realize what I'm saying will sting for some. But only for a little while. The Buddha mandala is not directional, not sequential, not hierarchical, not systematic. In these last days of these last 500 years of dharma, all haste is being made to ripen folks. Whatever small understanding I have, I feel I should magnify it and blow it up so as many as possible can catch a glimpse and have their samsaric existence cut off asap. Right now, we are in a situation where the buddhadharma is spreading like wildfire. It will also sputter out and be gone for a very long time. Time is of the essence. I'm swinging a sledge hammer. Feel free to reject me and ignore me. No dharma practice is lost. Though I might say so in the spirit of means. My number one message is to follow your faith to the limit. Whatever dharma you have no doubts about, go there now and don't look back. By the time you get to the end of that journey, we will all be where we started in the path with no goal.
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Re: Elements

Postby username » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:29 pm

Hi adinatha. Awesome? Moi? Wish a certain woman I'm chasing taught so too. Different teachers from the four schools, with you I share ChNNR. My practice is in essence probably mainly shamatha/shiney. As for all yanas ultimately being the same why not? In fact all phenomena are the same bindu as in interdependence or Indira's net. And since dharma and even science tell us time is a relative misleading subjective dimension if taken on it's own as we do by ancient habit: all beings are already fully enlightened ultimately inseparable in the mandala sea of all. And every phenomenon and ordinary being is constantly showing us complete self arisen rigpa but we don't get the hints. It is all very touching and beautiful and in essence they are all so unbelievably kind. I just saw your PM and as I'm lazy and have nothing to say anyway am copying/pasting this as a PM. Time to go for a drink anyway. Cheers.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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