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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:01 pm

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Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:19 pm

Namdrol wrote:So, bliss in Guru yoga is just a vehicle. In my own practice it is just not an important feature. Bliss is just an experience. But the total bliss described as part of the result, is merely another what of describing a state which is free from all impure conditions -- sort of like saying "healthy" because one is not sick.

Any, as you know there are four stages of bliss i.e. the three relative bliss — bliss, supreme bliss, the bliss of being free of bliss; and beyond all, innate bliss. And these four get divided up in sixteen etc., since there is a relationship with the sixteen moments of the path of seeing.

The trio of bliss, clarity and non-conceptuality are experiences that need to be recognized so that they do not serve as a basis for deviation.

N


Okay so the bliss of ojas, a physical bliss, is a facsimile of the blisses that are inherent within rigpa. So the tantric process is like familiarizing yourself with mother of pearl so that when you see a real pearl you can understand "pearl." Is that about right?
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:53 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:So, bliss in Guru yoga is just a vehicle. In my own practice it is just not an important feature. Bliss is just an experience. But the total bliss described as part of the result, is merely another what of describing a state which is free from all impure conditions -- sort of like saying "healthy" because one is not sick.

Any, as you know there are four stages of bliss i.e. the three relative bliss — bliss, supreme bliss, the bliss of being free of bliss; and beyond all, innate bliss. And these four get divided up in sixteen etc., since there is a relationship with the sixteen moments of the path of seeing.

The trio of bliss, clarity and non-conceptuality are experiences that need to be recognized so that they do not serve as a basis for deviation.

N


Okay so the bliss of ojas, a physical bliss, is a facsimile of the blisses that are inherent within rigpa. So the tantric process is like familiarizing yourself with mother of pearl so that when you see a real pearl you can understand "pearl." Is that about right?


Yes, that is an adequate analogy. But as I indicated elsewhere, ojas is something important, also is important to understand in terms achieving rainbow body, etc.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:01 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Okay so the bliss of ojas, a physical bliss, is a facsimile of the blisses that are inherent within rigpa. So the tantric process is like familiarizing yourself with mother of pearl so that when you see a real pearl you can understand "pearl." Is that about right?


Yes, that is an adequate analogy. But as I indicated elsewhere, ojas is something important, also is important to understand in terms achieving rainbow body, etc.


I don't understand this. Is it that it is important to cultivate ojas to achieve rainbow body? Or is it that during the process of effortless nyingthig, ojas naturally percolates. For example, the practice of Tregcho/Togal, profound bliss arises, but not because of volitional sadhana.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:09 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Okay so the bliss of ojas, a physical bliss, is a facsimile of the blisses that are inherent within rigpa. So the tantric process is like familiarizing yourself with mother of pearl so that when you see a real pearl you can understand "pearl." Is that about right?


Yes, that is an adequate analogy. But as I indicated elsewhere, ojas is something important, also is important to understand in terms achieving rainbow body, etc.


I don't understand this. Is it that it is important to cultivate ojas to achieve rainbow body? Or is it that during the process of effortless nyingthig, ojas naturally percolates. For example, the practice of Tregcho/Togal, profound bliss arises, but not because of volitional sadhana.


it is important because in order to achieve rainbow body one must purify the body through rasāyana. For example, prior to attaining rainbow body, Ngala Pema Dudul was living merely off of essence of vāyu in addition to drinking a little water for the last three or four years of his life.

The practice of chulen is most important in Dzogchen.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:14 pm

Namdrol wrote:it is important because in order to achieve rainbow body one must purify the body through rasāyana. For example, prior to attaining rainbow body, Ngala Pema Dudul was living merely off of essence of vāyu in addition to drinking a little water for the last three or four years of his life.

The practice of chulen is most important in Dzogchen.


That is nirmanakaya or sambhogakaya chulen, right? There is chulen of god and naga realms, and chulen of space, as well. Then there is dharmakaya chulen. Ati is dharmakaya chulen, isn't it?
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:18 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:it is important because in order to achieve rainbow body one must purify the body through rasāyana. For example, prior to attaining rainbow body, Ngala Pema Dudul was living merely off of essence of vāyu in addition to drinking a little water for the last three or four years of his life.

The practice of chulen is most important in Dzogchen.


That is nirmanakaya or sambhogakaya chulen, right? There is chulen of god and naga realms, and chulen of space, as well. Then there is dharmakaya chulen. Ati is dharmakaya chulen, isn't it?


No, living off the essence of vāyu is dharmakāya chulen. I.e. you are taking the pure five elements directly from breath.

Chulen of space is what we are taking about since space is the basis of the other four elements. It means the same thing. But in order to so this in a pure way one must build up through nirmanakāya and sambhogakāya chulen, respectively eating a sattvic diet combined with pills, in the second eating only pills, and perhaps flowers -- there are variations.

This chulen of space is the an important supporting condition of body of light realization.
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Enochian » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:21 pm

i am not trained in chulen at all, but just based on my amateur knowledge of ayurvedic tantrism, chulen of space probably has to do with khumbaka aka vase breath aka holding your breath. Everything in tibetan buddhism is about holding your breath.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:it is important because in order to achieve rainbow body one must purify the body through rasāyana. For example, prior to attaining rainbow body, Ngala Pema Dudul was living merely off of essence of vāyu in addition to drinking a little water for the last three or four years of his life.

The practice of chulen is most important in Dzogchen.


That is nirmanakaya or sambhogakaya chulen, right? There is chulen of god and naga realms, and chulen of space, as well. Then there is dharmakaya chulen. Ati is dharmakaya chulen, isn't it?


No, living off the essence of vāyu is dharmakāya chulen. I.e. you are taking the pure five elements directly from breath.

Chulen of space is what we are taking about since space is the basis of the other four elements. It means the same thing. But in order to so this in a pure way one must build up through nirmanakāya and sambhogakāya chulen, respectively eating a sattvic diet combined with pills, in the second eating only pills, and perhaps flowers -- there are variations.

This chulen of space is the an important supporting condition of body of light realization.


Here we must disagree. Drikung masters have secret chulen practice that comes just from prayer. Ultimately the chulen is resting in the nature of mind, or chulen of space-mind. The meaning is nonattachment, needlessness as the supporting condition of fasting. Because there is outer, inner, secret and ultimate essence. Dharmakaya is the ultimate essence. Not going out from it is not losing it. Not losing it is the samadhi that is interdependent with all successful rasayana.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:33 pm

adinatha wrote:
Here we must disagree.



You are entitled to disagree with Garab Dorje, Longchenpa, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu if you like.

Longchenpa terms it chulen of cittavāyu (rlung sems). This is taught in the sgra thal gyur.

As I said, it seems your view of these things is very influenced by your experience in Drikung. I have many Drikung teachers, but primarily for Yangzab.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Here we must disagree.



You are entitled to disagree with Garab Dorje, Longchenpa, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu if you like.

Longchenpa terms it chulen of cittavāyu (rlung sems). This is taught in the sgra thal gyur.

As I said, it seems your view of these things is very influenced by your experience in Drikung. I have many Drikung teachers, but primarily for Yangzab.


It's not me. It's Lord Jigten Sumgon. He disagrees. I don't disagree with him. I'm not allowed to describe the teachings in the "Golden Text," but there is no physical element to it. It's basically offering everything to buddha. Then, the ultimate offering is resting in the natural state. There's another practice similar to Feng Shui where everything is arranged correctly with right interdependence of colors and shapes and this leads to an incredible transcendental bliss. It's connected to the five elements and five colors. I don't know. Lord Jigten Sumgon is very special. His methods are unique. I don't understand why they work the way they do at all. My lama says don't try to. They're beyond logic. Like a higher dimensional interdependence, a secret one. This assists me in letting go, and also understanding Longchenpa's ultimate meanings.

Another example is Lord Jigten Sumgon explained all the different qualities of grains. I had a problem with low blood sugar all my life and low blood pressure. My lama explained I should to torma offerings of barley and not any other grain, because it has the balance of the elements. And also to eat barley flour every day. This solved my issue.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:09 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Here we must disagree.



You are entitled to disagree with Garab Dorje, Longchenpa, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu if you like.

Longchenpa terms it chulen of cittavāyu (rlung sems). This is taught in the sgra thal gyur.

As I said, it seems your view of these things is very influenced by your experience in Drikung. I have many Drikung teachers, but primarily for Yangzab.


It's not me. It's Lord Jigten Sumgon. He disagrees.



He can disagree if he wants -- if he wants to call samadhi "chulen" it is fine by me. What is more likely the case is that there is just a different emphasis, different terminology. I don't think that Jigten Sumgon was a recipient of many Dzogchen teachings. But I am not completely sure.

Things like qualities of food are explained very well in Ayurveda and so on. He was unlikely to have had much exposure to the Four Tantras tradition of Tibetan Medicine, because at that point is was still a family lineage in the Yuthok clan. He was a little younger than Yuthok. Tibetan Medicine originally was very secret, and is connected with Dzogchen as well. But like any educated Lama of his day, he certainly had access to various medical traditions and chulen traditions coming from India like the Amrita siddhi tradition.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:
It's not me. It's Lord Jigten Sumgon. He disagrees.



He can disagree if he wants -- if he wants to call samadhi "chulen" it is fine by me. What is more likely the case is that there is just a different emphasis, different terminology. I don't think that Jigten Sumgon was a recipient of many Dzogchen teachings. But I am not completely sure.

Things like qualities of food are explained very well in Ayurveda and so on. He was unlikely to have had much exposure to the Four Tantras tradition of Tibetan Medicine, because at that point is was still a family lineage in the Yuthok clan. He was a little younger than Yuthok. Tibetan Medicine originally was very secret, and is connected with Dzogchen as well. But like any educated Lama of his day, he certainly had access to various medical traditions and chulen traditions coming from India like the Amrita siddhi tradition.


Well. The wisdom of omniscience certainly can't hurt. According to him, the teachings in his "Profound Inner Teachings" came after he was enlightened, he saw precisely the interdependence of all things. Then, he saw the Seven Taras and all these teachings came out.
Last edited by adinatha on Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elements

Postby tamdrin » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:22 pm

I pay homage to Lord Jigten Sumgon, Ratna Shri, the Peerless One, who is the incarnation of Arya Nagarjuna, and who is the embodiment of the Buddhas of the three times: Lurigdron and Marme-ze in the past, Maitreya in the future, and Shakyamuni in the present era..

At least that is how Drikungpa's see him,
and he was born into a Nyingma family His dad was an accomplished Yamantaka practicioners.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:34 pm

adinatha wrote:
Well. The wisdom of omniscience certainly can't hurt. According to him, the teachings in his "Profound Inner Teachings" came after he was enlightened, he saw precisely the interdependence of all things. Then, he saw the Seven Taras and all these teachings came out.


That is very interesting. Well, in gsar ma, pure vision, in snying ma, gter ma.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:35 pm

tamdrin wrote:I pay homage to Lord Jigten Sumgon, Ratna Shri, the Peerless One, who is the incarnation of Arya Nagarjuna, and who is the embodiment of the Buddhas of the three times: Lurigdron and Marme-ze in the past, Maitreya in the future, and Shakyamuni in the present era..

At least that is how Drikungpa's see him,
and he was born into a Nyingma family His dad was an accomplished Yamantaka practicioners.


That does not mean he received for example, snyin thig teachings -- which at this point were still family lineages.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby tamdrin » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:37 pm

yeah , so what! receiving the teachings is not that difficult, but accomplishing one of the paths is difficult.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:44 pm

tamdrin wrote:yeah , so what! receiving the teachings is not that difficult, but accomplishing one of the paths is difficult.



Sean, my point is that it is quite possible that meaning of the teachings adinatha is talking about are just different terms for essentially the same principle.

Anyway, what I mentioned above is the statement of KDL. KDL was a Buddha, someone who finished all four visions and realized rainbow body.

This is a Buddha that we both knew personally.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby tamdrin » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:50 pm

KDL was cool for sure, and he had a very powerful blessings.. He probably got to the 3rd vision or so.. I dunno I don't think he manifested RB from what I heard although it was his wish.. Anyway I have recieved more teachings from the Drikung Kagyu this life.. and I view there approach as being equal with Nyingthig, despite what Longchempa might have to say about that.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:53 pm

tamdrin wrote:KDL was cool for sure, and he had a very powerful blessings.. He probably got to the 3rd vision or so.. I dunno I don't think he manifested RB from what I heard although it was his wish.. Anyway I have recieved more teachings from the Drikung Kagyu this life.. and I view there approach as being equal with Nyingthig, despite what Longchempa might have to say about that.



KDL went though all four visions to the end. He told me this personally. Not only me, but others. He did realize rainbow body. Rainbow body, in Dzogchen, does not mean that your body disappears. This is a huge misconception.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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