Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:55 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:
ok i see what you are saying. but is this canonically accurate?


As far as I know.
I'm sure someone will hit this thread and give more details than I can on how the attainments of annutarayoga tantra manifest but I do know that jalu or rainbow body is very specific and only a part of Dzogchen. Its even specific and unique to mengagde.



One can attain rainbow body through long sde as well.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:59 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:
ok i see what you are saying. but is this canonically accurate?


As far as I know.
I'm sure someone will hit this thread and give more details than I can on how the attainments of annutarayoga tantra manifest but I do know that jalu or rainbow body is very specific and only a part of Dzogchen. Its even specific and unique to mengagde.



One can attain rainbow body through long sde as well.

Good to know.
Is it based on a different set of methods or are they the same?
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:59 pm

Nangwa wrote:This is simply untrue. The only path that produces jalu or "rainbow body" is Dzogchen. Not all forms of Vajrayana realization are equivalent.
There is a rainbow body practice by the eighth Karmapa too.
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:02 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Nangwa wrote:This is simply untrue. The only path that produces jalu or "rainbow body" is Dzogchen. Not all forms of Vajrayana realization are equivalent.
There is a rainbow body practice by the eighth Karmapa too.
:namaste:

Cool.
There is always a ton of stuff to learn.
The depth and diversity of the methods of Vajrayana/Dzogchen never cease to amaze me.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby conebeckham » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:09 pm

From our point of view, we can perceive only the Nirmanakaya. Only Aryas on the Bhumis can perceive the Sambhogakaya, and only Buddhas can "perceive" the Dharmakaya.
But all three kayas are inseperable.

If we could see the "bodies" of Mila, Marpa, etc., after they were enlightened, and before they were enlightened, I'm not sure we would be able to note a difference. This is NOT due to their being no difference...it is entirely due to our own faulty cognition.

Even one of The Supreme Nirmanakaya's disciples was noted to observe that Sakyamuni looked like nothing special, apart from the slight glow around his head! :quoteunquote:
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:13 pm

conebeckham wrote:From our point of view, we can perceive only the Nirmanakaya. Only Aryas on the Bhumis can perceive the Sambhogakaya, and only Buddhas can "perceive" the Dharmakaya.
But all three kayas are inseperable.

If we could see the "bodies" of Mila, Marpa, etc., after they were enlightened, and before they were enlightened, I'm not sure we would be able to note a difference. This is NOT due to their being no difference...it is entirely due to our own faulty cognition.

Even one of The Supreme Nirmanakaya's disciples was noted to observe that Sakyamuni looked like nothing special, apart from the slight glow around his head! :quoteunquote:

Well said Cone.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:15 pm

conebeckham wrote:Only Aryas on the Bhumis can perceive the Sambhogakaya



This can't be true because didn't Padmasambhava, Vimalamitra, Tilopa appear to regular people in their Sambhogakāya form?

Didn't the king of tibet's hands go through Padmasambhava or something?
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby conebeckham » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:45 pm

Milarepa was able to shrink himself down so he could hunker down in a conch shell during a storm or something, as well...right?
And both he and Padampa Sangye were able to balance of stalks of grass......

Would these events have occurred to the vision of mundane sentient beings? I don't know. I think we'd need to see citations with regard to those issues you raise, but doctrinally, I've stated what has been asserted.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Luke » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Enochian wrote:This can't be true because didn't Padmasambhava, Vimalamitra, Tilopa appear to regular people in their Sambhogakāya form?

Didn't the king of tibet's hands go through Padmasambhava or something?

Another thing to remember is that one doesn't need to always be in a pure sambhogaya form to perform siddhis. Many people who were not enlightened also performed siddhis.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Inge » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:04 pm

conebeckham wrote:Milarepa was able to shrink himself down so he could hunker down in a conch shell during a storm or something, as well...right?

I thought he did so without shrinking?
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby conebeckham » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:07 pm

I think you're right, Inge!
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:52 pm

conebeckham wrote:Milarepa was able to shrink himself down so he could hunker down in a conch shell during a storm or something, as well...right?
And both he and Padampa Sangye were able to balance of stalks of grass......

Would these events have occurred to the vision of mundane sentient beings? I don't know. I think we'd need to see citations with regard to those issues you raise, but doctrinally, I've stated what has been asserted.



You know, that is a silly story. If Milarepa could fit his body in a conch shell, he could certainly keep the rain off by other means.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby conebeckham » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:53 pm

Yes, I know! :smile:

There are many "contradictions" in our lore and legend, eh? I've ceased being bothered by them.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:45 am

conebeckham wrote:I think we'd need to see citations with regard to those issues you raise, but doctrinally, I've stated what has been asserted.



This is well known stuff.
Last edited by Enochian on Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby adinatha » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:53 am

For what it's worth... Mila said his predecessors were all Nirmanakayas and prophesied his descendants would all be greater than the next. Also about the chapter on Thogal in the Hundred Thousand Songs. A knowledgeable Kagyu lama told me that was about a special kind of student, a skipping the grades type. A togal is a skipping the grades type, he said. I wonder about that. Anytime I point out overlaps between Ati and the Mahamudra lineage he would get squirrelly. It's difficult with the really devoted Kagyu lamas, because they love their lineage so much, one hesitates to press and hurt feelings.

With regard to the fruit, as samsara people we forget that dharma is not necessarily a systematic science. All the systematic appearance is sort of a big joke on us. A highly realized master is beyond limitations, by conquering Mara the Lord of Limitations. Please consider that when a text or teacher says, "you get fruit X doing method Y and not by any other method," it is to engender faith. The three statements; consider the three Vajra Verses, namely the second. I have come to a resolution that whatever you have unbreakable faith about is the dharma airline you should collect your frequent flier miles on. Without faith you got squat. Ultimately, it's all one single upadesha of life. All kayas are complete in a single instant already manifest.
CAW!
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:59 am

From what I understand 99% of Milarepa material is made up

Thats the impression I got from

The Biographies of Rechungpa
The Evolution of a Tibetan Hagiography
By Peter Alan Roberts
Last edited by Enochian on Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:01 am

adinatha wrote:For what it's worth... Mila said...



"...stabbed from the front by mahāmudra, stabbed from the back by Dzogchen."

Mila had ten Nyingma masters before he met Marpa.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:02 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:For what it's worth... Mila said...



"...stabbed from the front by mahāmudra, stabbed from the back by Dzogchen."

Mila had ten Nyingma masters before he met Marpa.

N



Well by default they had to be Nyingma, since the other schools didn't exist yet.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:03 am

Enochian wrote:From what I understand 99% of Milarepa material is made up


Depends on what material. Are all the songs in the Gur 'bum Mila's? Probably not. Are many of them? Yes.

There is an older unexpurgated version of the Gur 'bum. In order to establish which songs are authentic and which are psuedographia or adaptions, a lot of research is needed.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:04 am

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:For what it's worth... Mila said...



"...stabbed from the front by mahāmudra, stabbed from the back by Dzogchen."

Mila had ten Nyingma masters before he met Marpa.

N



Well by default they had to be Nyingma, since the other schools didn't exist yet.


No, that is not so -- there was a lot of gsar ma material in Tibet when Mila was a youth. He just happened to have had Nyingma masters.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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