Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby tamdrin » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:38 am

ps - I think you are wrong about any Lama's thinking Deity Yoga and Tummo to be a waste of time, conversily Tummo is considered a very important practice because it is the main method Milarepa used to attain enlightenment..
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby tamdrin » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:56 am

Yes Kagyu is considered the blessing lineage..

Gampopa said
"We are the blessing lineage,
If the Lama's blessings are received- the realization of Mahamudra is not difficult"
-something to that effect..
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:10 am

tamdrin wrote:
adinatha wrote:
tamdrin wrote:based on the discussions happening here I'm starting to feel Sarma Tantras have things to offer that Nyingma tantras do not...


Before you go and jump ship, keep in mind that in some Sarma circles, sahaja-mahamudra is considered the highest method. It is roughly equivalent to tregcho. It is taught in a Dzogchen-like way where you are introduced to nature of mind in a Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha transmission. Then, you increase your clarity with guru yoga, Vajrasattva and mandala practice (sometimes prostrations are included in mandala). The main practice is naturalness and luminosity. Given the current state of affairs with Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, it is interesting how one lama, at least, (who has no connection to Norbu Rinpoche and doesn't know what he teaches) follows a similar line of teaching style. For me this is very instructive and a fortune of interdependence and blessings. So a sahaja-mahamudra guru basically laughs at deity yoga and tummo as something low level and a waste of time, and the visualization methods that are applied are Anuyoga style. The wonderful good fortune of the Golden Rosary lineage is the force of blessings. In terms of the path of blessings, sarma has a more high voltage transmission system, because their entire focus is blessings as path. To my mind even as wonderful as these powerful blessings are, the power of rigpa-luminosity is more; it's just not always as cozy and fuzzy, which is why Dzogchen's usually a wrathful mandala. It's not like Dzogchen is old hat and sarma is high tech. There's no higher view than Ati.

t caug

You assume wrongly my friend, my Lineage is actually Drikung Kagyu but I have been influenced by a lot of dzogchen I guess... I understand Mahamudra to be the wisdom of my dharmakaya itself.. actually when this is introduced to you, in Kagyu, it is the wisdom of the path of seeing itself! so I don't think of it in terms of "gradual" or "instanteneous".. I think its silly to get caught up in whats the highest or "best" method as seems to happen a lot here in internet forums..Anyway its funny even within the lineage there seem to be two groups of people.. some that are more influenced by the Yangzab etc but traditionally one could do all the 5 fold Mahamudra stuff then do the Yangzab too .. anyway it seems that more nyingma oriented practicionres tend to go crazy and this was confirmed by khyentse rinpoche who said that many (more than half or 90% of Thogal practicioners in Tibet go crazy..) and in the lineage there is some feeling (i think although it may be unspoken) that the dzogchen people are a more outlandish crazy bunch.. (but this is an observation that is true of Vajrayana followers in general as compared to other Buddhists because our karma ripens quickly on this path..


Fantastic. Awesome. I always get concerned if I think someone wants to leave their hut. There are so many paths out. Belief is key.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:16 am

tamdrin wrote:ps - I think you are wrong about any Lama's thinking Deity Yoga and Tummo to be a waste of time, conversily Tummo is considered a very important practice because it is the main method Milarepa used to attain enlightenment..


I'm definitely not wrong about my lama's thinking. According to Drubpon Gonpo Dorjee, and the Pith Instructions to the Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha, there are three levels of practitioner, high, average and low. High practitioners do clear light mahamudra. Medium one's need tummo, postures and gazes. Low one's need karmamudra. It says so explicitly in the outline given by HH Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche. I presented him with this same concern I had about Milarepa. He told me that this is the path of blessings. Naropa's prophecy was Marpa's descendants would be greater than the next. Gampopa's student developed the same level of tummo in one week that took Milarepa twelve years. This is the force of blessings. And now we don't even need tummo. Blessings and view are enough. That's what he told me. I know from HH Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche that "Co-Emergent Mahamudra," from Lord Jigten Sumgon's "Introduction to Mahamudra: The Co-Emergent Unification," this path I'm talking about with no tummo or deity yoga, not the 5-Fold Path Mahamudra, is going to come into great prominence now as it is seen to be more appropriate for Western practitioners. Not only that, but it's the most advanced level of practice in Drikung Kagyu as it traditionally was only taught to those in the final 6 months of their 3 year retreat. It will be supplemented by teachings from Lord Jigten Sumgon's collection of profound secret methods (like chulen of god realm and naga realm), which will never be published, but have been printed in gold and will be held under lock and key.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby tamdrin » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:23 am

while for most of us it is hard/impossible to rest in direct perception thus many methods are needed.. though I would imagine that many people would be happy to be given karmamudra as one of the (lower level practices) and a suitable consort at that too...
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:26 am

tamdrin wrote:while for most of us it is hard/impossible to rest in direct perception thus many methods are needed.. though I would imagine that many people would be happy to be given karmamudra as one of the (lower level practices) and a suitable consort at that too...


Well perhaps that is so. The bhakti for realization makes direct perception of dharmata the mudra. Hence, mahamudra.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:29 am

adinatha wrote:It will be supplemented by teachings from Lord Jigten Sumgon's collection of profound secret methods (like chulen of god realm and naga realm), which will never be published, but have been printed in gold and will be held under lock and key.


They have been published. But not easy to procure.

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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby tamdrin » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:33 am

adinatha wrote:
tamdrin wrote:ps - I think you are wrong about any Lama's thinking Deity Yoga and Tummo to be a waste of time, conversily Tummo is considered a very important practice because it is the main method Milarepa used to attain enlightenment..


I'm definitely not wrong about my lama's thinking. According to Drubpon Gonpo Dorjee, and the Pith Instructions to the Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha, there are three levels of practitioner, high, average and low. High practitioners do clear light mahamudra. Medium one's need tummo, postures and gazes. Low one's need karmamudra. It says so explicitly in the outline given by HH Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche. I presented him with this same concern I had about Milarepa. He told me that this is the path of blessings. Naropa's prophecy was Marpa's descendants would be greater than the next. Gampopa's student developed the same level of tummo in one week that took Milarepa twelve years. This is the force of blessings. And now we don't even need tummo. Blessings and view are enough. That's what he told me. I know from HH Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche that "Co-Emergent Mahamudra," from Lord Jigten Sumgon's "Introduction to Mahamudra: The Co-Emergent Unification," this path I'm talking about with no tummo or deity yoga, not the 5-Fold Path Mahamudra, is going to come into great prominence now as it is seen to be more appropriate for Western practitioners. Not only that, but it's the most advanced level of practice in Drikung Kagyu as it traditionally was only taught to those in the final 6 months of their 3 year retreat. It will be supplemented by teachings from Lord Jigten Sumgon's collection of profound secret methods (like chulen of god realm and naga realm), which will never be published, but have been printed in gold and will be held under lock and key.


Sounds good man.. What is that chulen of god realm and naga realm stuff?
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby tamdrin » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:36 am

I mean what is the goal of it, I understand that it is secret..
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:55 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:It will be supplemented by teachings from Lord Jigten Sumgon's collection of profound secret methods (like chulen of god realm and naga realm), which will never be published, but have been printed in gold and will be held under lock and key.


They have been published. But not easy to procure.

N


O yes that's right. I think actually Tony Duff has them computerized. But they haven't been translated. I doubt they will since they have put so much money into turning them into a precious metal.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:56 am

tamdrin wrote:
adinatha wrote:
tamdrin wrote:ps - I think you are wrong about any Lama's thinking Deity Yoga and Tummo to be a waste of time, conversily Tummo is considered a very important practice because it is the main method Milarepa used to attain enlightenment..


I'm definitely not wrong about my lama's thinking. According to Drubpon Gonpo Dorjee, and the Pith Instructions to the Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha, there are three levels of practitioner, high, average and low. High practitioners do clear light mahamudra. Medium one's need tummo, postures and gazes. Low one's need karmamudra. It says so explicitly in the outline given by HH Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche. I presented him with this same concern I had about Milarepa. He told me that this is the path of blessings. Naropa's prophecy was Marpa's descendants would be greater than the next. Gampopa's student developed the same level of tummo in one week that took Milarepa twelve years. This is the force of blessings. And now we don't even need tummo. Blessings and view are enough. That's what he told me. I know from HH Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche that "Co-Emergent Mahamudra," from Lord Jigten Sumgon's "Introduction to Mahamudra: The Co-Emergent Unification," this path I'm talking about with no tummo or deity yoga, not the 5-Fold Path Mahamudra, is going to come into great prominence now as it is seen to be more appropriate for Western practitioners. Not only that, but it's the most advanced level of practice in Drikung Kagyu as it traditionally was only taught to those in the final 6 months of their 3 year retreat. It will be supplemented by teachings from Lord Jigten Sumgon's collection of profound secret methods (like chulen of god realm and naga realm), which will never be published, but have been printed in gold and will be held under lock and key.


Sounds good man.. What is that chulen of god realm and naga realm stuff?


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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby conebeckham » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:32 pm

Interesting stuff.....
Adinatha, Which student of Gampopa's, specifically, was said to have the same Tummo development as Milarepa in a shorter time?

I also find it interesting that a method which claims to dispense with the very root of the Path of Means can be "supplemented" with practices that certainly relate to "means," i.e. Chulen, etc.

Also, many "texts" or teachings have been printed in gold....that, in itself, is not really a factor in their availability, you know?

But I'm not disputing anything.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:45 pm

We know that Sarma material affected the Old School Dzogchen.

What about the other way?

Dzogchen influence on Sarma?
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby conebeckham » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:55 pm

tamdrin wrote:while for most of us it is hard/impossible to rest in direct perception thus many methods are needed.. though I would imagine that many people would be happy to be given karmamudra as one of the (lower level practices) and a suitable consort at that too...


Agree with you regarding the difficulty of "resting." I also agree that people would be "happy.".....heh heh.

But in reality, Karmamudra can only be engaged in by a student who has satisfactory progress in the Methods of the Upper Doors, i.e., using one's own body as the basis.

Kamtsang tradition says that the Highest level practitioner will be liberated simply by Direct Introduction and the path of Essence Mahamudra. Medium level practitioners work with the Path of Means--Six Yogas, with Tummo as the root. Amongst these, Tummo practice, if mastered, can lead to liberation in this lifetime--and the Six Yogas, in general, can lead to liberation at Death, or in the Bardo after Death, or at the very least to conducive circumstances for rebirth via Phowa.
Karmamudra is a branch practice of Six Yogas, in some sense....and specifically of the Tummo practice. It is very much related to the Skillful means of developing Coemergent Bliss/Emptiness..in that sense, it's a practice for, let's say, "well-developed" Medium Level practitioners.

I've never heard Karmamudra recommended to the "lowest level" practitioner, but it's common to teach and practice the methods successively, in the Kamtsang, from the Path of Liberation to the Path of Means, in that order.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:43 pm

Enochian wrote:We know that Sarma material affected the Old School Dzogchen.

What about the other way?

Dzogchen influence on Sarma?


yes, it exists. Dzogchen masters present gsar ma material very differently than those without training in Dzogchen.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby conebeckham » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:17 pm

And we should note that "influence" goes both ways...i.e., some Sarma traditions go to great lengths to discredit Dzokchen.

This, too, is "influence."
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:25 pm

conebeckham wrote:Interesting stuff.....
Adinatha, Which student of Gampopa's, specifically, was said to have the same Tummo development as Milarepa in a shorter time?


I didn't get that. My memory is we were talking about someone not Phagmo Drubpa and I vaguely recall we were talking about Karma Kagyu.

I also find it interesting that a method which claims to dispense with the very root of the Path of Means can be "supplemented" with practices that certainly relate to "means," i.e. Chulen, etc.


I know. It's weird. It's like a Dzogchen approach, except in Dzogchen the practitioner can sort of wade through things and be self-directed somewhat. Here, the lama hides the ball and gets you geared up to do one method and when you get to retreat switches it up. There's a tradition of putting everything on lama's shoulders here. It can be trippy, but good trippy.

Also, many "texts" or teachings have been printed in gold....that, in itself, is not really a factor in their availability, you know?

But I'm not disputing anything.


No I forgot there is an electronic Tibetan version out there. My understanding was that Garchen Rinpoche and others pleaded with HH Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche not to let them get translated or published widely. They want to maintain the supremacy of the lineage by controlling info as much as they can.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:28 pm

conebeckham wrote:
tamdrin wrote:while for most of us it is hard/impossible to rest in direct perception thus many methods are needed.. though I would imagine that many people would be happy to be given karmamudra as one of the (lower level practices) and a suitable consort at that too...


Agree with you regarding the difficulty of "resting." I also agree that people would be "happy.".....heh heh.

But in reality, Karmamudra can only be engaged in by a student who has satisfactory progress in the Methods of the Upper Doors, i.e., using one's own body as the basis.

Kamtsang tradition says that the Highest level practitioner will be liberated simply by Direct Introduction and the path of Essence Mahamudra. Medium level practitioners work with the Path of Means--Six Yogas, with Tummo as the root. Amongst these, Tummo practice, if mastered, can lead to liberation in this lifetime--and the Six Yogas, in general, can lead to liberation at Death, or in the Bardo after Death, or at the very least to conducive circumstances for rebirth via Phowa.
Karmamudra is a branch practice of Six Yogas, in some sense....and specifically of the Tummo practice. It is very much related to the Skillful means of developing Coemergent Bliss/Emptiness..in that sense, it's a practice for, let's say, "well-developed" Medium Level practitioners.

I've never heard Karmamudra recommended to the "lowest level" practitioner, but it's common to teach and practice the methods successively, in the Kamtsang, from the Path of Liberation to the Path of Means, in that order.


There really are so many approaches and ways of divying up paths.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:38 pm

tamdrin wrote:while for most of us it is hard/impossible to rest in direct perception thus many methods are needed.. though I would imagine that many people would be happy to be given karmamudra as one of the (lower level practices) and a suitable consort at that too...
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:58 am

hahahahaha! That's the most hilarious post I've ever seen in a Buddhist forum Greg! :rolling:
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