Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

[Enochian]

Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.

[Malcolm]

Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.

If this was the case, there could be no nirmanakāya.

[Enochian]

These guys were not emanations.

They were regular humans like us that worked hard to obtain Sambhogakāya.

There is a contradiction here which is disturbing.

[Jikan]

Enochian:

Trying to follow your argument here. What do you mean by nirmanakaya? that is, how do you understand that term to mean? Is it exactly and exclusively the same as "emanation"? come to think of it, I'm not sure I understand that term in the same way you do either. Would you please clarify it a bit?

[Enochian]

I think Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche says in one of his books that Marpa used phowa at death, which implies Marpa was NOT a Buddha before death?

[dakini_boi]

Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.

[Enochian]

Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.

Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?

[dakini_boi]

I still don't understand the contradiction. They might not have been nirmanakayas, but once any ordinary (non-nirmanakaya) being attains buddhahood, they will have attained all 3 kayas.

[Josef]

Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.

Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?

Its still unclear what you think the contradiction is?
The namthar's arent necessarily "lies", they may be parable but not lies.

[Enochian]

Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

[gregkavarnos]

Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.

What is your main practice Enochian? Who is your teacher?

[Will]

Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.

[dakini_boi]

Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

I think you've been misinformed. Where did you hear this? Attaining buddhahood results in the 3 kayas (3 bodies of a buddha) - dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya. Dharmakaya and sambhogakaya are generally beyond the limits of ordinary beings to perceive; nirmanakaya are physical emanations.

[gregkavarnos]

Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.

There was no Kagyu yet when Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa were rockin'!

[Jikan]

Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?

Sweet, another centuries-old conspiracy! Hope it measures up to the gold standard in paranoid air-castles, concerning the decor & design of the Denver Int'l Airport...

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Denver_Airport.html

[Josef]

Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

Only if they practice thogal.

[Enochian]

Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

Only if they practice thogal.

Oh come on.

Namdrol says somewhere on this forum that the goal of Dzogchen is nothing other than Buddhahood.

Dzogchen is not fundamentally different than the rest of Vajrayana.


For god's sake even Zen recognizes the 3 Kayas

[Josef]

Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

Only if they practice thogal.

Oh come on.

Namdrol says somewhere on this forum that the goal of Dzogchen is nothing other than Buddhahood.

Dzogchen is not fundamentally different than the rest of Vajrayana.


For god's sake even Zen recognizes the 3 Kayas

Here are the two types of Buddhahood that result in the rainbow body. They are only attainable via thogal/Dzogchen.

"Dzogchen describes two states of final Buddhahood: abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi. The former is with residue, the latter without residue."—Namdrol from the Rainbow Body Misconception thread

There are different methods with different results that culminate in Buddhahood. The so-called body of light is only attainable through Dzogchen.

[gregkavarnos]

Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.

What is your main practice Enochian? Who is your teacher?

No teacher? No practice?

[Will]

Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.

There was no Kagyu yet when Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa were rockin'!

Nor was there Buddhism when Buddha was "rockin"; nor Geluk when Je Rinpoche etcetera....