Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

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Enochian
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Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Enochian »

Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Malcolm
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Malcolm »

Enochian wrote:Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.

If this was the case, there could be no nirmanakāya.
Enochian
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Enochian »

These guys were not emanations.

They were regular humans like us that worked hard to obtain Sambhogakāya.

There is a contradiction here which is disturbing.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
DGA
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by DGA »

Enochian:

Trying to follow your argument here. What do you mean by nirmanakaya? that is, how do you understand that term to mean? Is it exactly and exclusively the same as "emanation"? come to think of it, I'm not sure I understand that term in the same way you do either. Would you please clarify it a bit?
Enochian
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Enochian »

I think Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche says in one of his books that Marpa used phowa at death, which implies Marpa was NOT a Buddha before death?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
dakini_boi
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by dakini_boi »

Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? :shrug: If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.
Enochian
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Enochian »

dakini_boi wrote:Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? :shrug: If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.

Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
dakini_boi
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by dakini_boi »

I still don't understand the contradiction. They might not have been nirmanakayas, but once any ordinary (non-nirmanakaya) being attains buddhahood, they will have attained all 3 kayas.
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Josef
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Josef »

Enochian wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? :shrug: If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.

Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?
Its still unclear what you think the contradiction is?
The namthar's arent necessarily "lies", they may be parable but not lies.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Enochian
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Enochian »

Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Grigoris
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Grigoris »

Enochian wrote:Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.
What is your main practice Enochian? Who is your teacher?
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
dakini_boi
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by dakini_boi »

Enochian wrote:Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.
I think you've been misinformed. Where did you hear this? Attaining buddhahood results in the 3 kayas (3 bodies of a buddha) - dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya. Dharmakaya and sambhogakaya are generally beyond the limits of ordinary beings to perceive; nirmanakaya are physical emanations.
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Grigoris
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Grigoris »

Will wrote:Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.
There was no Kagyu yet when Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa were rockin'!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
DGA
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by DGA »

Enochian wrote: Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?
Sweet, another centuries-old conspiracy! :thumbsup: Hope it measures up to the gold standard in paranoid air-castles, concerning the decor & design of the Denver Int'l Airport...

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Denver_Airport.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Josef
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Josef »

Enochian wrote:Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.
Only if they practice thogal.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Enochian
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Enochian »

Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.
Only if they practice thogal.

Oh come on.

Namdrol says somewhere on this forum that the goal of Dzogchen is nothing other than Buddhahood.

Dzogchen is not fundamentally different than the rest of Vajrayana.


For god's sake even Zen recognizes the 3 Kayas
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Josef
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Josef »

Enochian wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.
Only if they practice thogal.

Oh come on.

Namdrol says somewhere on this forum that the goal of Dzogchen is nothing other than Buddhahood.

Dzogchen is not fundamentally different than the rest of Vajrayana.


For god's sake even Zen recognizes the 3 Kayas
Here are the two types of Buddhahood that result in the rainbow body. They are only attainable via thogal/Dzogchen.

"Dzogchen describes two states of final Buddhahood: abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi. The former is with residue, the latter without residue."—Namdrol from the Rainbow Body Misconception thread

There are different methods with different results that culminate in Buddhahood. The so-called body of light is only attainable through Dzogchen.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Grigoris
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Grigoris »

gregkavarnos wrote:
Enochian wrote:Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.
What is your main practice Enochian? Who is your teacher?
:namaste:
No teacher? No practice?
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

gregkavarnos wrote:
Will wrote:Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.
There was no Kagyu yet when Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa were rockin'!
Nor was there Buddhism when Buddha was "rockin"; nor Geluk when Je Rinpoche etcetera....
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
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