Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:50 am

:namaste: dear friend!
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:47 am

username wrote:
Your Karma is not necessarily better or worse than anyone here. How many insects did we kill intentionally as children in this life or previous lives? Each was a sentient being just like a human being. So we could all be suffering extremely badly if all our karma from numerous lives unfolded. All karma does not necessarily unfold as secondary conditions and causes come into play and much can be averted or purified. Your depression and suicidal thoughts are very common in modern society. So stop blaming yourself and giving yourself extra unnecessary burden. Mingyur Rinpoche who is an amazing young tulku and master and a close friend and elder vajra brother of the Karmapa often details his earlier psychological problems. He was told by his master to use the severe panic attacks as the path and go to their root to see the wisdom in them and then the real nature of mind. You can read or listen to his accounts. The problem with suicide is that the Karma for that often ripens quickly and one can end up in a worse world system and/or worse situation. Our psychological states can be a great crisis but also a great opportunity as they say in China but here for making progress on the path. One of Trungpa Rinpoche's sons who is a great tulku has been severely mentally disabled and has been in care for decades 24/7. Secretly he is a blessing and in my opinion taking on sufferings of others as he must have vowed in a previous life. The last Karmapa took on his fatal illness in the west for the sake of westerners. In cases like ours these problems can actually be transformed into great leaps on the path. So it is foolish for you to be judged by yourself or others.

Some tantric practices are good for some mental illnesses and some are bad depending on the person as said. ChNNR often tells the story of a person who had a physical illness and was told to practice Vajrapani. He told Rinpoche he is doing ngondro and his lama won't let him. After seeing him a few more times in the following years he got worse and finally it was too late to do Vajrapani practice as he was dying which he did. So just doing what a lama says is not necessarily right as it depends on the lama too. There is also justification for warning psychologically vulnerable people to choose their own advanced tantric practices. Many have ended up badly or crazy or dead after taking on tantric practices such as the six yogas and wrathful ones and some even do it without empowerment from books which is even worse. You can research comprehensively or ask around for a good mature esteemed master before choosing one. If your old lama worked for you, go to him again.

You can also ask Lama Dawa by email to do divination for you but keep in mind two points. First ask precise questions like for my psychological problems and suicidal thoughts which lama and practice is best. People always ask about how things are or were but never for the exact remedy! Also if the best lama for you is not accessible, ask again saying who is the best lama I can access within my circumstances. If that is again too far, ask again saying the lama is not accessible. Same for specific practices to help you. Then before taking on a lama you can tell him what the divination said. Also you can have more than one lama which many forget and good teachers often welcome that. Also mainly use rationale and common sense, logic, cold analysis and critical reasoning in calmer moments. Shamatha/Shiney for moments of crisis and later nature of mind based guru yoga. Local sangha can be useful too. And of course modern medicine and therapies but from what therapist doctor friends have told me finding a good one can be hard and many of them actually often need basic advice themselves. Alternative traditional medicine like Tibetan, Chinese or Ayurvedic can be useful if they start to work for you. Wiser people's company too. Be open to stable and calming new experiences and sense yourself more for solutions. With all these tools you can find your way easily but slowly and not in one leap.

You are not starting from scratch as your path has already given you experience of what works and what does not. Just think of the suffering of all the hundreds of millions who are much worse. That sympathy actually helps you not just by feeling better than others but like Shakyamuni who was once in hell as all have been and took on the burden of the person next to him by pulling his load uphill under lashes and was immediately released from hell for that action. Karma works in very complex ways and don't believe simplifications and blame yourself. From your tone I would say you are actually very together and once you overcome the black clouds and finally start to see their wisdom essence, you will make more rapid progress than most of us. If I had to place a bet I would say your karma is probably much better than most of us, not to mention your honesty and pure intentions which also come through. Once you have made progress and well beyond these current problems you can start to think of ways to help people who are still suffering from them in this and future lifetimes and make appropriate aspirations. All the best to you.
http://tergar.org/
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... poche&aq=f





Wow. Thank you Username for taking the time to answer my post so throughly . Thank you for pointing out how problems can be a blessing .

I do remind myself that my problems are nothing.. compaired to most problems and sufferings of people in this world. After I came here last night...
I could sense people were praying for me...I am overwelmed by your words and all those here that have such beautiful energy, to help those suffering.

I am starting again...slowly...to come back to my beautiful friends & Buddhist practice. Thank you for the links to TEGAR...there is one very close to me...I almost went there today as I know someone speaking/teaching there !!!!!! (Cortland Dahl !!!) He is AMAZING !!!

I will contact them.

Thank you so much dear Username .


:namaste:
User avatar
Kunga Lhadzom
 
Posts: 299
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:01 am

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby username » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:29 am

Pleasure Kunga and I do apologize as when in pain, faulty words like mine or even knowing the truth often don't help but remembering the darkest moments pass helps a little, sometimes. All suffer. Mingyur Rinpoche is going into 3 year retreat but his people are wonderful and his elder brother Tsoknyi Rinpoche who is truly amazing and unique travels to teach. I'm sure in the long run you're luckier than most of us, best wishes my friend.

Nyima Ozer:
It is not surprising therefore, that Vajra Humkara told his disciple Padmasambhava to go and study at the feet of his own beloved guruji, Sri Simha. Going to the Cina Valley, Padmasambhava found Sri Simha living as a yogi in a cremation ground. He begged for enlightenment. According to Evans-Wentz's translation:

"When Padma(sambhava) requested the guru Sri Simha to teach him, the guru pointed to the heavens and said:


'Have no desire for what thou seest.
Desire not; desire not. Desire; desire.
Have no desire for desire; have no desire for desire.
Desire and deliverance must be simultaneous.
Voidness; voidness. Non-voidness; non-voidness.
Non-obscuration; non-obscuration. Obscuration; obscuration.
Emptiness of all things; emptiness of all things.
Desire above, below, at the centre, in all directions, without differentiation.'


When all this had been explained in detail, the guru assured Padma that he would realize the essentiality of all doctrines..."

From Sri Simha, the prince of yogis received the mystical tantric empowerments and teachings. Then in various cremation grounds inhabited by yogis and yoginis in Cina, and in the famous Eight Sacred Cremation grounds of India, the diligent practitioner Padmasambhava struggled to attain realization. Living like an ascetic hermit, he was known as Suryabhasa Yogi, the Sun-ray Mystic.


- http://www.dharmafellowship.org/biograp ... mbhava.htm


Taggie Mukpo:
ImageImage

http://taggiemukpo.org/
Last edited by username on Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby plwk » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:33 am

Awww, the late Old Master.... :anjali:
plwk
 
Posts: 2735
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby spanda » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:36 pm

I have a friend, who, with 2 years ago, had a very difficult time after a Vajrayana retreat, when he had a psychotic breakdown. I know him well, and I can tell you that it was a perfectly normal man until that moment. This friend of mine participate at a highest yoga tantra retreat (which involved empowerment + experiential explanations of generation and completion stage). I talked to him in details about everything that happened with him, and even now, for him everything is a big mystery. He doesn’t understand what happened exactly with him. Now, after all this time, he is still very traumatized by the event.
He told me that, in the first 2-3 days of the retreat, he spontaneously entered in an extremely peaceful state of mind, which was more and more profound with every hour which was passing. It was very impressed about this state, and attributed it to the presence of the Rinpoche involved (an old and famous lama with a huge meditational experience). Then, in one of the meditations from the retreat, he explained me that he felt that it was on the verge of completely losing his “identity”, and he had a felling on imminent death, of complete annihilation. He became very very scarred. In the next days, his fear transformed in full blowing panic attacks, which after 2-3 days become full psychoses. So, in the last day of the retreat, he was completely psychotic. His psychosis was characterized by an extreme fear, powerful delusions and even some hallucinations. He had all the time the feeling that it is surrounded by “demons”, he realized that “the hell” is here on earth, he could “see” the demons walking between us (normal people - even some of his old friends - which now appeared to him like demons - he could see black eyes at this people) and that the “demons” control everybody’s minds, he felt that everything is a dream, at one moment he believed that he is Karmapa reincarnated, etc)
He was taken to a hospital and he was diagnosed with an “atypical psychotic episode”. He was put on medication - antipsychotics - and the psychosis dissipated very fast. Now he is still on medication (the standard treatment for something like this must be taken for 1-2 years, continuously, to prevent any possible relapse) and the secondary effects of this drugs are extreme. Practically his life was shattered in pieces. He lost all his interest in Buddhism and in any type of spirituality, and he become extremely pragmatic (a normal reaction after something like this, an unconscious attempt to become firmly grounded in the material reality, to prevent any other psychosis). I could say that now, is a man profoundly traumatized, who try desperately to understand what happened exactly with him, how it was possible that, from a perfectly healthy human being, to have an episode of “insanity”.
Of course I tried to help him. I analyzed together with him the possible factors that could be made responsible for his psychotic episode: deficiency of vitamin B12 (in hospital the doctors discovered at him a deficit of B12), a possible food allergies (now in psychiatry is recognized that a food allergies could trigger something like this), etc. But his psychiatrist (a very capable one), told him again and again that, in his opinion, what triggered the episode was something from the retreat.
The most possible explanation for what happened to him came from the works of dr. Stanislov Grof, the father of transpersonal psychology. These are some quotes from his books:

“In the broadest sense, what is presented as psychiatric symptom can be seen as an interface conflict between two different modes in which humans can experience themselves. The first of these modes can be called hylotropic consciousness 1; it involves the experience of oneself as a solid physical entity with definite boundaries and a limited sensory range, living in three-dimensional space and linear time in the world of material objects. Experiences in this mode systematically support a number of basic assumptions, such as: matter is solid; two objects cannot simultaneously occupy the same space; past events are irretrievably lost; future events are not experientially accessible; one cannot be in more than one place at a time; one can exist only in a single time framework at a time; a whole is larger than a part; and something cannot be true and untrue at the same time.
The other experiential mode can be termed holotropic consciousness; it involves identification with a field of consciousness with no definite boundaries which has unlimited experiential access to different aspects of reality without the mediation of the senses. Here there are many viable alternatives to three-dimensional space and linear time. Experiences in the holotropic mode systematically support a set of assumptions diametrically different from that characterizing the hylotropic mode: the solidity and discontinuity of matter is an illusion generated by a particular orchestration of events in consciousness; time and space are ultimately arbitrary; the same space can be simultaneously occupied by many objects; the past and the future can be brought experientially into the present moment; one can experience oneself in several places at the same time; one can experience several temporal frameworks simultaneously; being a part is not incompatible with being the whole; something can be true and untrue at the same time; form and emptiness are interchangeable; and others. A life experience focusing exclusively on the hylotropic mode and systematically denying the holotropic one is ultimately unfulfilling and fraught with lack of meaning, but can be practiced without any major emotional difficulties. A selective and exclusive focus on the holotropic mode is incompatible with adequate functioning in the material world for the time it lasts. Like the hylotropic mode, it can be difficult or pleasant, but it presents no major problems as long as the external situation of the experiencer is covered. Psychopathological problems result from a clash and disharmonic mixture of the two modes when neither of them is experienced in pure form nor integrated with the other into an experience of a higher order.
What psychiatry describes and treats as symptoms of mental disease can be seen as manifestations of interface noise between these two complementary extremes. They are experiential hybrids that represent neither one nor the other mode, nor a smooth integration of both, but their conflict and clash. On the biographical level this can be illustrated by a neurotic whose experience of the present moment is distorted by partial emergence of an experience that belongs contextually to another temporal and spatial framework. He does not have a clear and appropriate experience corresponding to the present circumstances, nor is he fully in touch with the childhood experience that would justify the emotions and physical sensations he is having. The mixture of both experiences without a discriminating insight is characteristic of a strange spatiotemporal experiential amalgam that psychiatry calls "symptoms."

“There are indications that even many of the acute psychotic conditions, for which the application of the medical model might seem most indicated and justifiable, are dramatic attempts on the part of the organism at problem solving, self-healing, and achieving a new level of integration. As I mentioned earlier, it has been reported in the literature that a certain number of acute psychotic breakdowns even under the current circumstances that are far from ideal, result in a better adjustment that the patient had before the episode.
It is also well known that acute and dramatic psychotic states have a much better prognosis than those that develop slowly and insidiously. Observations of this kind seem to support the material from modern consciousness research suggesting that the major problem in many psychotic episodes is not the upsurge of the unconscious material, but the remaining elements of ego control that interfere with successful completion of the gestalt involved. If this is the case, the strategy of choice should not be to put a psychopathological label on the process and try to interfere with it by suppressing the symptoms, but to facilitate and expedite it in a supportive atmosphere.”

“In the new approach, psychogenic disorders reflect the confusion between the hylotropic mode and the holotropic mode of consciousness, or the inability of the subject to confront the emerging holotropic material and integrate it into the everyday experience of the material world. The general strategy to be pursued is full experiential immersion in the surfacing theme and, after its completion, return to an uncomplicated and full experience of the present time and place.
For example, in native cultures it is understood that the shamanic crisis reflects higher calling and is in its nature healing and benevolent. The same is true about Kundalini awakening, as it is described in yogic literature. At the same time, it is well known that these processes can under certain circumstance cause considerable problems for the experients. Both the shamanic lore and the yogic literature emphasizes that it can be very dangerous to resist the process. It is not uncommon, that serious problems including psychotic episodes occur during intense spiritual practice, with or without breathing exercises, for example in Zen sesshins, Vipassana retreats, Christian prayer, Sufi zikers, etc”



My friend psychotic episode seams to correspond with what Grof talk about. Of course, at the hospital, nobody took in consideration something like this. A psychotic episode, for the mainstream psychiatrists is just a moment of insanity..
I was almost convinced by Grof explanation, until I talked with someone very knowledgeable in the Buddhist field, who told me that the cause of what happened could be a “lung disorder”, consecutively of the initiation and teachings she received. He told me that, sometimes, during tantric initiations and practice, some knots around a channel are loosened and the karmic winds tend to go through this newly open channel in great intensity. This can cause a lot of problems, including mental disorders, etc. He told me that such things can happen, especially with unprepared students, and that, this is one of the main reasons of secrecy around high tantric teachings, not too much because of secret mantras or visualizations, but mostly because they can affect the channels and open them very swiftly, and for someone who is unprepared and cannot control his mind, this can be a very serious problem.

Then I found this quotes in one of Dudjom Lingpa text :

“This is the way the experiential visions progress. Initially, vital energy fills you inside from your heart up to your throat, or various sorts of illnesses or disagreeable pains may occur. Randomly moving throughout the exterior and interior of your body, staying in no one place for long, these disturbances arise due to the potency of the vital energy of primordial wisdom striking the ascending wind. Then they increase yet further, and disturbances arise due to the potency of the vital energy of primordial wisdom striking the life-sustaining wind. Then you may experience mood swings from joy to sorrow and from desire to hatred. Finally, all the winds combine and enter the channels and elements of the body, and sharp pains arise in all the channels. You may engage in various kinds of behavior, acting coquettishly or shamelessly, like someone afflicted with a disease. In short, know fully well that due to the functions of the channels, winds, and elements, these bodily pains will not be the same for everyone, so there is no one criterion for recognizing them.
As for your speech, you may find yourself singing various songs and melodies, babbling, speaking offensively, having your behavior not conform to your speech, not living in accord with your words and acting contrary to them, and speaking uncontrollably as if your words were uttered by an insane person. Such speech is nonsensical and random, So recognize this!
Like the noises made by a madman, your mind may ramble aimlessly, without being able to remedy or alter it in any way. Due to the disorders in your heart and life force channel, at times you may weep, groan, sigh, exhale forcefully, or constantly want to be on the move, without being able to remain in one place. Your environment may seem so miserable that you do not want to stay where you are, and you may constantly experience a wide range of confused emotions. So recognize this! You may have various sorts of visions of gods and demons or random sensations of hunger, thirst, heat, cold, and so on. These are the outer signs of the appearances of the clear light. "

"Thus, when you are engaging in practice, whether an unprecedented, soothing sense of bliss arises, or a pristine sense of clarity , or a nebulous nonconceptuality, if you take this to be genuine meditation and cling to it as the fulfillment of your hopes, or if you regard those as areas of danger and block them, or if you alter them with you mind, such practice entailing hopes and fears will lead you astray. In contrast, once you have recognized the nature of existence of meditative experiences, by letting them be in their own state, without attachment, craving, rejection, or affirmation, they will vanish altogether, like mist disappearing into the sky, and the primordial wisdom of awareness will become manifest.
You may perceive various disagreeable forms of gods and demons, different kinds of pleasant and unpleasant sounds, various foul odors, disagreeable tastes, various kinds of tactile sensation:;, and you may have nightmares and wake up at times in a panic. Those experiences may bring forth different types of distress in your heart and mind. Due to your diet, environment, or trauma, illnesses may arise, and merely as a result of coming into contact with soil, rocks, wood, or weapons, you may come down with afflictions difficult to heal. Various bad omens, such as sores, leprosy, or ulcers, may occur as apparitions created by gods or demons, which arise from external sources. Any of the four hundred and four classes of illnesses of wind, bile, phlegm and combinations of them may arise, and--as if the entire might and strength of your mind had seeped away into them--inexpressible suffering may occur .Those are called physical illnesses, which arise from within.
With respect to objects of the mind, you may experience happiness, attachment, hatred, craving, unbearable suffering, delight, clinging to the experience of emptiness and luminosity, a sense of sheer vacuity in which appearances and the mind cease, paranoia that everything you see or feel is out to harm you, or the pride of thinking, 'There is no contemplative on earth who has a view and meditation like mine.' Under the influence of anger and malice, you may disturb the minds of others, and afterwards feel remorse. You may feel that everything you have done is wonderful, and consequently feel free to do whatever you like. Such indeterminate experiences of joy and sorrow are called joys and sorrows due to the mysterious impulses in the mind. Know that all such sensations are deceptive experiences that occur as signs along the path; and, without attachment, craving, rejection, affirmation, hope, fear, or modification, leave them as they are. By so doing, they will release themselves. Hold this knowledge to be of the highest importance.
If your meditative experience leads to illness and you compound this by interpreting this as being due to demonic influence, no matter how much you devote yourself to magic rituals for dispelling obstacles, or to medical treatment, that will only harm you, without bringing any benefit. However much you try, you will not get even the slightest bit of benefit. Eventually, if the sentry of identifying the meditative experience is lost, you will go insane, pass out, faint, or become as ignorant as an animal, or this might lead to your own death. In the past there have been many faithful students who kept their pledges and vows, and there have always been spiritual mentors who became siddhas, so they knew the various dispositions and faculties of specific students; and they led them to the state of the Jina Vajradhara in one lifetime and with one body. Even when they are not led astray by anyone, nowadays students invariably fail to keep their pledges, they have little faith or reverence, and they are barbaric and prone to false views. Blind teachers hanker after meditative experiences and give teachings and make their students meditate so that they objectify and cling onto views and meditation. Consequently, instead of identifying the occurrences of mere pleasure and pain and comfort and distress as meditative experiences, due to their ignorance of the differences between experiences that arise from external and internal sources, they say they are due to demonic influences, thus misleading their own students. “



It was a little shocking to read all this, especially when I discovered a lot of my friends symptoms.
I wish to help my friend to understand what happened with him (because even now, after all this time, he suffers immensely, and he is still terrorized by the thought that his psychosis could return anytime), so I ask for your help. It is really possible that was indeed affected by a lung disorder?
spanda
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby username » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:18 am

He should have not been allowed to continue for days as he deteriorated. The greatest trickster and opponent is the canny and uber ancient ego, specially when it realizes it is entering the final stages and lifetimes and facing the truth of non-existence of itself and all. It might show too much too soon so one backs off for the current lifetime for temporary relief, but it knows by doing so it cuts itself badly too for the next life. Your friend should continue to use basic common sense as his lamp and once off drugs should be able to slowly settle into being calm and peaceful but he should also stop fearing different kinds of fears. That is illogical. If he prevents the tried arising contexts for previous illnesses or breakdowns he will be fine. Anyway most die from heart disease and cancer, or something else, and are reborn. So if doing our best, why live or rather merely exist in fear? Step by step, he'll be fine.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby spanda » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:38 am

"That’s why it’s very important that when we go deeper into Buddhism and the study of Buddhism that, basically, we have to be qualified as a student. The major qualification is that we are mature and have some sort of healthy sense of “me.” Because if we deconstruct the me, and the person doesn’t have a healthy sense of “me,” then they are left with nothing. Therefore, it’s not recommended to teach voidness to children or young teenagers, who haven’t yet developed a healthy sense of an individual “me,” because they will deconstruct too much.
We hear over and over again in the teachings the warning, and you can take vows for this, not to teach voidness to those who are not ready. And that’s the danger, that they refute everything and then it can result in real psychosis.
Question: Is there also the danger that the ego could become even stronger?
Answer: Well, it, could either become more strong, or you deny everything."


This is the reason why one of the Eighteen Bodhisattva Root Downfalls is: "Teaching voidness to those whose minds are untrained".

Could this be another possible explanation for my friend situation (beside lung disorder)? Because definitively was not prepared..
spanda
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby spanda » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:52 am

Now I see that Namdrol is a Doctor in Tibetan Medicine. Could you clarify for us please this "lung disorder"?
In your opinion, it is possible that in this case, to be something like this involved? What would be the best approach in this case, from the point of view of Tibetan Medicine? Thanks
spanda
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby username » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:06 pm

He needs to have some peace from all this to finish his treatment with his doctors and you can easily refocus your fascination on another subject.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby dakini_boi » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:19 pm

username wrote:He needs to have some peace from all this to finish his treatment with his doctors and you can easily refocus your fascination on another subject.



Spanda can also get a lot of info on lung by doing a google search!
dakini_boi
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby spanda » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:23 pm

username wrote:He needs to have some peace from all this to finish his treatment with his doctors and you can easily refocus your fascination on another subject.


What do you call "fascination", I call a normal reaction, when a friend is in need.
On google I found out only superficial information regarding lung disorder. To superficial to be useful.
spanda
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:25 pm

A friend of mine "lost it" at a vipassana retreat, regressed to childhood and lived out a traumatic experience from this early stage of his life. The effect, thankfully, did not last too long and he used it as a springboard to actually start to deal with his childhood issues. Intense pracitce is just that: INTENSE!

Another time, at an empowerment, a full on punch up broke out between a woman with a history of mental illness and another woman that happened to make a valid comment/observation at the wrong time. Luckily some friends of mine (who are also martial arts instructors) jumped in and broke up the fight. The funny thing was that the tulku doing the empowerment, I was watching him the whole time since I knew my friends were more than capable of defusing the situation, didn't miss a beat on his damaru. I was later informed he had seen worse situations during ceremonies.

Even "lower" practices are not to be taken lightly. Things mature so quickly during practices and that sudden surge can manifest as bliss, rage, fear, etc... depending on ones karmic disposition.

People sometimes jump into things thinking they are ready but most of the time it is just pride and egotism driving them and then the practices can even cause harm instead of benefit. That is why one needs a teacher that knows where one is at in order to judge whether they should move to the next "level" or not.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9789
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby username » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:57 pm

Smoking is particularly detrimental to lung disorders.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby dakini_boi » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:47 pm

spanda wrote:
username wrote:He needs to have some peace from all this to finish his treatment with his doctors and you can easily refocus your fascination on another subject.


What do you call "fascination", I call a normal reaction, when a friend is in need.
On google I found out only superficial information regarding lung disorder. To superficial to be useful.


If you want specifics about treating lung disorders, look in an Ayurveda book about the kinds of diet and activities to pacify vata. If what you need is even more specific, you should probably take your friend to see a professional.
dakini_boi
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby Dhondrub » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:51 pm

Tsoknyi Rinpoche on Lung

buddhistmala.com/store/Lung.doc
Dhondrub
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:19 pm

spanda wrote:Now I see that Namdrol is a Doctor in Tibetan Medicine. Could you clarify for us please this "lung disorder"?
In your opinion, it is possible that in this case, to be something like this involved? What would be the best approach in this case, from the point of view of Tibetan Medicine? Thanks


A vata disorder occurs when one of the five vāyus in the body becomes deranged.

Simply put frequent massages, rich food, dark, quite, pleasant companions, no stress.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12157
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby orgyen jigmed » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:47 pm

Inge wrote:
If you are afflicted by mental illness, and are practicing Vajrayana, what to do?


It seems to me that the relief of your mental distress should be your top priority! Although I do not have any ways of knowing, and unless there is a genetic history of depression and anxiety in the family, or it is circumstantial, such as unemployment, I am inclined to hypothesise that your distress has a cognitive nature, often derived from certain distortions of reality based on erroneous premises and assumptions about self, others and the world.

If this is the case, you must learn to deal effectively with present misconceptions that are producing painful emotional symptoms, or what in Vajrayana is called 'wrong view'. If your motivation to approach Vajrayana is the search for a 'cheap miracle' this won't do. Research has shown that spiritual centres - and this does not apply just to Vajrayana alone - do have a tendency to attract masses of ordinary people who find some relief from anxiety and resolution of everyday conflicts in such religious activity.

Now as regards to treatment, how do you conceptualise your problem? Which world view do you embrace? Which cultural methods are best suited for you? What are your needs? What are your fantasies and cultural expectations? Are you searching for an exotic non-western type of ethnopsychiatry such as Tantric healing, or Tibetan Medicine, which also have methods to heal such problems? Or do you prefer a Western research based psychotherapy, such as Mindfulness Based Cognitive therapy? this is not only short and effective, but is considered the treatment of choice for Depression and Anxiety, and whose principles are in agreement with Buddhist teachings? Or do you want a combination of these? See, its’ up to you...
"If the aspiration for enlightenment is your motivation in coming to see me, there is no remedy except meditative practice. I, too, will only practice." - Zurpoche Sakya Jungne
User avatar
orgyen jigmed
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:26 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby gnegirl » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:29 pm

Namdrol wrote:
spanda wrote:Now I see that Namdrol is a Doctor in Tibetan Medicine. Could you clarify for us please this "lung disorder"?
In your opinion, it is possible that in this case, to be something like this involved? What would be the best approach in this case, from the point of view of Tibetan Medicine? Thanks


A vata disorder occurs when one of the five vāyus in the body becomes deranged.

Simply put frequent massages, rich food, dark, quite, pleasant companions, no stress.


Even w/o a Vata disorder, this sounds pretty nice :)
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
User avatar
gnegirl
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:22 pm
Location: Waponi Woo

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby spanda » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:59 pm

gnegirl wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
spanda wrote:Now I see that Namdrol is a Doctor in Tibetan Medicine. Could you clarify for us please this "lung disorder"?
In your opinion, it is possible that in this case, to be something like this involved? What would be the best approach in this case, from the point of view of Tibetan Medicine? Thanks


A vata disorder occurs when one of the five vāyus in the body becomes deranged.

Simply put frequent massages, rich food, dark, quite, pleasant companions, no stress.


Even w/o a Vata disorder, this sounds pretty nice :)


:jawdrop:
spanda
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders

Postby Dharmaswede » Sat May 21, 2011 11:08 am

Just a general observation: Be careful with giving and taking advice online on serious psychological conditions. Tibetan medicine/psychiatry is not my area of expertise however, and my warning does not extend to that paradigm simply because I don't whether it applies or not.

Best Wishes,

Jens
Dharmaswede
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:22 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Tibetan Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Genduen Phuntsok, monktastic and 18 guests

>