Restricted books

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Restricted books

Postby tamdrin » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:50 pm

Kirt,
I assumed you were being sarcastic when you said "he was just some dude" but are you kidding me? You havn't read Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence Tantra have you... The guy was amazing... he wasn't an ordinary
bloke
tamdrin
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:01 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby narraboth » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:20 pm

kirtu wrote:
narraboth wrote:
kirtu wrote:
That's true. Dudjom Rinpoche designated this as a restricted text. But he was just some 19th century Tibetan village dude out in the middle of nowhere.


you sure you know what you are talking about?


What part? Dudjom Lingpa was illiterate, was a village terton, was out in the middle of nowhere for Tibet (okay maybe not totally nowhere but sort of somewhere around Dege and Nangchen and today they aren't even dots on a map [which reminds me - an ethno-political/cultural map of 19th century Tibet would be really useful]).

and when you said 'can't be too much in there', were you sarcastic or???


Amongst native English speakers the sarcasm is very obvious taken as a whole. Even to borderline Aspergers people like me.

I think the power of the text is overwhelming and it is clear by at least the second chapter that there is really a whole lot here going on that just a record of stories of visions and dreams (at least not ordinary visions or dreams).

Kirt


I guessed so but was not 100% sure, maybe because I am not English native speaker obviously.

(Why's non-English native speaker issue being so emphasized today? (see Namdrol's another post)
I know it might be annoying for you guys to understand us sometimes, but please appreciate that we try hard.
and please be understanding that there are many non-native speakers of English reading this forum)

In your sense there are too many terton chenpo could be out of nowhere :)
Last edited by narraboth on Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
narraboth
 
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:18 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby kirtu » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:25 pm

tamdrin wrote:Kirt,
I assumed you were being sarcastic when you said "he was just some dude" but are you kidding me? You havn't read Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence Tantra have you... The guy was amazing... he wasn't an ordinary
bloke


The only thing I've read from Dudjom Lingpa is BWOM. I've never read anything about him directly either. Just stories from teachers.

What? You mean he wasn't an ordinary guy? Imagine that ....

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4368
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Restricted books

Postby narraboth » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:30 pm

kirtu wrote:
tamdrin wrote:Kirt,
I assumed you were being sarcastic when you said "he was just some dude" but are you kidding me? You havn't read Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence Tantra have you... The guy was amazing... he wasn't an ordinary
bloke


The only thing I've read from Dudjom Lingpa is BWOM. I've never read anything about him directly either. Just stories from teachers.

What? You mean he wasn't an ordinary guy? Imagine that ....

Kirt


There's a Tratung Dudjom Lingpa autobiography available, well, in Chinese. Very interesting.
(Now I can be glad of being a non-native English speaker)
narraboth
 
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:18 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby kirtu » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:41 pm

kirtu wrote:Dudjom Rinpoche designated this as a restricted text. But he was just some 19th century Tibetan village dude out in the middle of nowhere.


kirtu wrote:
narraboth wrote:and when you said 'can't be too much in there', were you sarcastic or???


Amongst native English speakers the sarcasm is very obvious taken as a whole. Even to borderline Aspergers people like me.


narraboth wrote:I guessed so but was not 100% sure, maybe because I am not English native speaker obviously.


narraboth wrote: I know it might be annoying for you guys to understand us sometimes, but please appreciate that we try hard.
and please be understanding that there are many non-native speakers of English reading this forum)


Well under one definition of native english speaker I don't qualify but it's the language I am most fluent in. And it would have been unfair for me to slack off in ESL classes in school esp. since I lost the first language I spoke as a young boy until I was in my 20's.

In your sense there are too many terton chenpo could be out of nowhere :)


Entirely possible. I am uncertain about people claiming to be tertons. But terton activity is still clearly happening.

As for my sarcasm, while Namdrol is certainly correct that statements are exaggerated and there is some fanaticism involved in some views regarding restricted texts Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism are living systems and the wisdom of the masters is still very much active. If Dudjom Lingpa declared this to be a restricted text he had a good reason and we should at least consider his view on the matter as best we can.

Similarly Tulku Urygen and his sons are kind of wild men for their time as their only consideration is the liberation and enlightenment of beings. If one of them had told me to go read it I'd do it. Padmasambhava manifests in our world in the flesh through lamas at these levels.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4368
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Restricted books

Postby kirtu » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:44 pm

narraboth wrote:There's a Tratung Dudjom Lingpa autobiography available, well, in Chinese. Very interesting.
(Now I can be glad of being a non-native English speaker)


Well you should translate it for the English speaking world. Maybe there's a story about BWOM.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4368
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Restricted books

Postby heart » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:45 pm

tamdrin wrote:Kirt,
I assumed you were being sarcastic when you said "he was just some dude" but are you kidding me? You havn't read Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence Tantra have you... The guy was amazing... he wasn't an ordinary bloke


Were do you order that book and how it is restricted tamdrin?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby Josef » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:56 pm

kirtu wrote:
tamdrin wrote:Kirt,
I assumed you were being sarcastic when you said "he was just some dude" but are you kidding me? You havn't read Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence Tantra have you... The guy was amazing... he wasn't an ordinary
bloke


The only thing I've read from Dudjom Lingpa is BWOM. I've never read anything about him directly either. Just stories from teachers.

What? You mean he wasn't an ordinary guy? Imagine that ....

Kirt

Alan Wallace translated sections of Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence. The book is called Stilling the Mind and Wisdom Publications is releasing it in July.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby Josef » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:05 pm

heart wrote:
tamdrin wrote:Kirt,
I assumed you were being sarcastic when you said "he was just some dude" but are you kidding me? You havn't read Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence Tantra have you... The guy was amazing... he wasn't an ordinary bloke


Were do you order that book and how it is restricted tamdrin?

/magnus

You can get the Tibetan text through Vimala Treasures I believe.
Any restrictions through them are usually based upon ones own teacher etc.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby tamdrin » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:25 pm

Hi Heart,
Yes I am glad to hear that it is being published! Scarily enough I have seen parts of it are published by the controversial group (i think they are) american buddha, and can be found by doing a google. search.. Alan Wallace is big into it yes and he has done the translation.. He said this text has everything one would need to achieve the rainbow body.
tamdrin
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:01 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby Pero » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:15 pm

kirtu wrote:If Dudjom Lingpa declared this to be a restricted text he had a good reason and we should at least consider his view on the matter as best we can.


From memory since I don't have the book with me, all it says is that it's recommended to receive the lung and teachings for it. If what you say is true though, then it would be kind of stupid to put it on Amazon, don't you think?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:17 pm

tamdrin wrote:Hi Heart,
Yes I am glad to hear that it is being published! Scarily enough I have seen parts of it are published by the controversial group (i think they are) american buddha, and can be found by doing a google. search.. Alan Wallace is big into it yes and he has done the translation.. He said this text has everything one would need to achieve the rainbow body.



Yes, it does -- so do a thousand others.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11743
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Restricted books

Postby kirtu » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:21 pm

Pero wrote:
kirtu wrote:If Dudjom Lingpa declared this to be a restricted text he had a good reason and we should at least consider his view on the matter as best we can.


From memory since I don't have the book with me, all it says is that it's recommended to receive the lung and teachings for it. If what you say is true though, then it would be kind of stupid to put it on Amazon, don't you think?


Well there are different takes on this as we have been traipsing through. In general many of the masters have decided that it is better to get this stuff out there so that people with a karmic connection can benefit. If you have no connection with the text at all you won't even see it. If you have some slight connection then you might come across it. If you have a deep connection then you might buy it and understand a little of it. And then notice the line about just keeping in on the shrine or revered until you can get the empowerment and some teaching on it.

Talk about Dudjom Lingpa said this or that are for people already to some extent deeply and actively involved on the path.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4368
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Restricted books

Postby kirtu » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:24 pm

Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:Hi Heart,
Yes I am glad to hear that it is being published! Scarily enough I have seen parts of it are published by the controversial group (i think they are) american buddha, and can be found by doing a google. search.. Alan Wallace is big into it yes and he has done the translation.. He said this text has everything one would need to achieve the rainbow body.



Yes, it does -- so do a thousand others.


Then "let 1000 rainbow bodies bloom!" to paraphrase another text. "Why aren't they blooming?" was asked of Wallace himself in an interview a while ago.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4368
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Restricted books

Postby Pero » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:32 pm

kirtu wrote: And then notice the line about just keeping in on the shrine or revered until you can get the empowerment and some teaching on it.


Ah yes, I remember that. I guess it's probably better I don't comment.

Talk about Dudjom Lingpa said this or that are for people already to some extent deeply and actively involved on the path.

What? I don't understand.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby heart » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:58 pm

Nangwa wrote:
kirtu wrote:
tamdrin wrote:Kirt,
I assumed you were being sarcastic when you said "he was just some dude" but are you kidding me? You havn't read Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence Tantra have you... The guy was amazing... he wasn't an ordinary
bloke


The only thing I've read from Dudjom Lingpa is BWOM. I've never read anything about him directly either. Just stories from teachers.

What? You mean he wasn't an ordinary guy? Imagine that ....

Kirt

Alan Wallace translated sections of Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence. The book is called Stilling the Mind and Wisdom Publications is releasing it in July.


I think he translated the whole thing, its been available on american buddha for years but I hesitate getting things from samaya breakers.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby Josef » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:14 pm

heart wrote:Alan Wallace translated sections of Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence. The book is called Stilling the Mind and Wisdom Publications is releasing it in July.


I think he translated the whole thing, its been available on american buddha for years but I hesitate getting things from samaya breakers.

/magnus[/quote]
He may have.
But I know that the public edition that Wisdom is publishing is not the text in its entirety. Its still a significant volume though.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:32 pm

kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:Hi Heart,
Yes I am glad to hear that it is being published! Scarily enough I have seen parts of it are published by the controversial group (i think they are) american buddha, and can be found by doing a google. search.. Alan Wallace is big into it yes and he has done the translation.. He said this text has everything one would need to achieve the rainbow body.



Yes, it does -- so do a thousand others.


Then "let 1000 rainbow bodies bloom!" to paraphrase another text. "Why aren't they blooming?" was asked of Wallace himself in an interview a while ago.

Kirt



People don't practice.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11743
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Restricted books

Postby tamdrin » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:44 pm

some people practice but according to Wallace's reading of the Buddhist scriptures in general it is important to cultivate shamatha up to and approaching the first dhyana to be succesful in the other practices in general and this level of concentration is not easy to achieve,
tamdrin
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:01 pm

Re: Restricted books

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:01 pm

tamdrin wrote:some people practice but according to Wallace's reading of the Buddhist scriptures in general it is important to cultivate shamatha up to and approaching the first dhyana to be succesful in the other practices in general and this level of concentration is not easy to achieve,



There is shamatha and then there is shamatha.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11743
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

PreviousNext

Return to Tibetan Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Tanaduk, xabir and 28 guests

>