Restricted books

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Re: Restricted books

Postby tamdrin » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:21 pm

yes indeed...
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Re: Restricted books

Postby narraboth » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:58 pm

kirtu wrote:
narraboth wrote:There's a Tratung Dudjom Lingpa autobiography available, well, in Chinese. Very interesting.
(Now I can be glad of being a non-native English speaker)


Well you should translate it for the English speaking world. Maybe there's a story about BWOM.

Kirt


you can ask Namdrol or other people who know tibetan. Chinese version is already a translation from Tibetan, probably not good to have double translation.

BWOM is not mentioned in autobiography, but in his autobiography there are many many other pure visions and conversation between dudjom lingpa and dieties or dharma protectors.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby heart » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:58 am

tamdrin wrote:some people practice but according to Wallace's reading of the Buddhist scriptures in general it is important to cultivate shamatha up to and approaching the first dhyana to be succesful in the other practices in general and this level of concentration is not easy to achieve,


If you read Shakya Sri's "The vital essence" (translated in Quintessential Dzogchen I think) he say exactly the same thing.

/magnus
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Re: Restricted books

Postby tamdrin » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:39 pm

nice.. we better get working on that shamatha in that case...
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Re: Restricted books

Postby kirtu » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:59 pm

Pero wrote:
kirtu wrote: And then notice the line about just keeping in on the shrine or revered until you can get the empowerment and some teaching on it.


Ah yes, I remember that. I guess it's probably better I don't comment.


Well if Chagdud Tulku recommended that, then I'd do that too, therefore .... In his case I haven't taken teaching directly from him either but I do feel that I have some teaching indirectly from him and a connection with him that I wasn't able to follow up on in this life.

Pero wrote:
Talk about Dudjom Lingpa said this or that are for people already to some extent deeply and actively involved on the path.

What? I don't understand.


People just coming into Tibetan Buddhism have no idea who Dudjom Lingpa was. I remember at my first Tibetan Buddhist teaching with HH Penor Rinpoche I was draw to a music tape outside for sale and people explained to me that these were songs in Tibetan about Guru Rinpoche. And I asked - "Who's Guru Rinpoche?" Then they explained about Padmasambhava and I said yes I knew the history of Padmasambhava so they were relieved that I at least knew a little about Nyingma history.

But its like that. So admonitions from Dudjom Lingpa only matter to people on the path and Westerners are not going to know about him until they are a bit along the path.

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Re: Restricted books

Postby narraboth » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:43 pm

kirtu wrote:Well if Chagdud Tulku recommended that, then I'd do that too, therefore .... In his case I haven't taken teaching directly from him either but I do feel that I have some teaching indirectly from him and a connection with him that I wasn't able to follow up on in this life.


People just coming into Tibetan Buddhism have no idea who Dudjom Lingpa was. I remember at my first Tibetan Buddhist teaching with HH Penor Rinpoche I was draw to a music tape outside for sale and people explained to me that these were songs in Tibetan about Guru Rinpoche. And I asked - "Who's Guru Rinpoche?" Then they explained about Padmasambhava and I said yes I knew the history of Padmasambhava so they were relieved that I at least knew a little about Nyingma history.

But its like that. So admonitions from Dudjom Lingpa only matter to people on the path and Westerners are not going to know about him until they are a bit along the path.

Kirt


When tulku thondup rinpoche received this text from khen kungzang nyima (one lineage holder of the text), only people who finished ngondro were allowed to listen. Actually the teaching was posponed to wait several people finish their nearly finished ngondro. (I have to admit that I have the book in hand when I didn't finish ngondro)

Of course you can say teaching dzogchen was stricter in old time and it's more open nowadays, but it also depends on who your guru is, and what's the lineage of the text.

Dudjom Lingpa... well, it's not just the problem of westerners. Although I think people in Taiwan could have more chance to know about this and that masters, there would be always newbies who need to learn some history. When people are interested they will try to find books or google. It's just that there are slightly more resources in Chinese at this stage, probably won't be too long. :)

There will be always something people don't know and need to know, even very well learned people. For example, very good translators made a historical mistake in their footnote in the book 'Brilliant Moon': Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche mentioned that he met 'Pema Tukje Wangchuk, the son of Drime Pema Lingpa', and they footnoted Drime Pema Lingpa as 18th centry Pema Lingpa, which makes Khyentse Rinpoche practically impossible to meet his son.
Drime Pema Lingpa is also called Drime Ozer Lingpa, a terton chenpo live near Sengri Gar, as famous as Lerab Lingpa at that time at that region. Have you heard of him? I know him only because my guru is Garje Khamtrul Rinpoche, a student of Pema Tukje Wangchuk.

I have talked to someone about northern treasure, when we were actually receiving some northern treasure teachings from great Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche, in Poland, a sort-of northern treasure lineage centre.
I said, I am really thankful that Tsetrul Rinpoche can give northern treasure teaching oversea; pity that Rinzin Chenmo couldn't openly teach.
He said: Rinzin Chenmo? Who's Rinzin Chenmo?
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Madeliaette » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:57 pm

Jumping back to the last page (sorry, I don't have time to read every thread every day)...
In general many of the masters have decided that it is better to get this stuff out there so that people with a karmic connection can benefit.

A related point i would like to bring out is that those of us who were previously studying restricted texts prior to death - when reborn, can have already done some of the groundwork. (I know from personal experience that some of the Buddhist meditational practices have come 'too easy' to me for it to be my first time practising - this led me to search for where I was up to before, so I can get back to it and continue - bumping into many restrictions due to not having started at square one THIS life through and therefore not having proof of having 'started' and worked my way through.) I think that this may be why some people are drawn to restricted texts and maybe why some masters are permitting less restrictions.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Josef » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:07 pm

Madeliaette wrote:Jumping back to the last page (sorry, I don't have time to read every thread every day)...
In general many of the masters have decided that it is better to get this stuff out there so that people with a karmic connection can benefit.

A related point i would like to bring out is that those of us who were previously studying restricted texts prior to death - when reborn, can have already done some of the groundwork. (I know from personal experience that some of the Buddhist meditational practices have come 'too easy' to me for it to be my first time practising - this led me to search for where I was up to before, so I can get back to it and continue - bumping into many restrictions due to not having started at square one THIS life through and therefore not having proof of having 'started' and worked my way through.) I think that this may be why some people are drawn to restricted texts and maybe why some masters are permitting less restrictions.

Thats just not how it works.
For example, even the tulku of a Longchen Nyingthig lineage master would re-receive all the transmissions of his/her previous incarnation.
This is how the transmission is authenticated and maintained.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Pero » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:39 pm

kirtu wrote:
Pero wrote:
kirtu wrote: And then notice the line about just keeping in on the shrine or revered until you can get the empowerment and some teaching on it.


Ah yes, I remember that. I guess it's probably better I don't comment.


Well if Chagdud Tulku recommended that, then I'd do that too, therefore .... In his case I haven't taken teaching directly from him either but I do feel that I have some teaching indirectly from him and a connection with him that I wasn't able to follow up on in this life.


Sure, I think that if you feel that way you can/should do that. I don't feel that way though.

People just coming into Tibetan Buddhism have no idea who Dudjom Lingpa was. I remember at my first Tibetan Buddhist teaching with HH Penor Rinpoche I was draw to a music tape outside for sale and people explained to me that these were songs in Tibetan about Guru Rinpoche. And I asked - "Who's Guru Rinpoche?" Then they explained about Padmasambhava and I said yes I knew the history of Padmasambhava so they were relieved that I at least knew a little about Nyingma history.

Hmmm, I think you're mistaken in thinking that people who have been into Tibetan Buddhism longer should necessarily know about Dudjom Lingpa or others.

But its like that. So admonitions from Dudjom Lingpa only matter to people on the path and Westerners are not going to know about him until they are a bit along the path.

I looked in the book now and that "admonition" didn't come from Dudjom Lingpa nor Jigdral Yeshe Dorje. It came from Chagdud Tulku. And again, I think there is no necessary correlation with knowing Dudjom Lingpa and time spent on the path.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby narraboth » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:37 am

Madeliaette wrote:A related point i would like to bring out is that those of us who were previously studying restricted texts prior to death - when reborn, can have already done some of the groundwork. (I know from personal experience that some of the Buddhist meditational practices have come 'too easy' to me for it to be my first time practising - this led me to search for where I was up to before, so I can get back to it and continue - bumping into many restrictions due to not having started at square one THIS life through and therefore not having proof of having 'started' and worked my way through.) I think that this may be why some people are drawn to restricted texts and maybe why some masters are permitting less restrictions.


It could be that if you learn one text this life, you will be more familiar with another text next life. Like in a story, a bird who listened to a monk chanting Praja sutra reborn as a boy who understand praja sutra quickly.

But the reason some Dzogchen texts are restricted, not just because they are secret and dharma protectors won't be happy etc. It's because people tend to understand the verses with their conceptional mind, thus got an actually incorrect idea before they really understand the meaning through experience. It is harmful.
Nyushu Longdor forbid Khenpo Ngachung to read tred cho text before he finished all necessary ngondro, rushen and mind seeking etc. Khenpo Ngachung is emenation of Vimalamitra, he can't be more 'qualified'. But his guru asked him not to read in advance.
If what you said is correct: reading dzogchen texts can make us understand dzogchen more easily next life, then maybe those masters who allow students read dzogchen openly do not expect students to acheive something in the current life anyway. Maybe we should feel disappointed rather than proud when we are told that we can read all dzogchen texts.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby narraboth » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:01 am

Pero wrote:Hmmm, I think you're mistaken in thinking that people who have been into Tibetan Buddhism longer should necessarily know about Dudjom Lingpa or others.

I looked in the book now and that "admonition" didn't come from Dudjom Lingpa nor Jigdral Yeshe Dorje. It came from Chagdud Tulku. And again, I think there is no necessary correlation with knowing Dudjom Lingpa and time spent on the path.


If the 'admonition' exist, it's not created by chagdud tulku, it's the tradition in the not-too-long transmission lineage of this text, as I said above.
Anyway, if a master holds the lineage of this text, he could basically deside not to follow the tradition, if he has a good reason.

People who get involved in Tibetan Buddhism longer do not necessarily know dudjom lingpa or others, yes.
but usually lama explains some history in the teaching, and it's natural that people would look for more information on things they are interested in, so in most of cases, people should have some reasonable understanding after a while.

I have seen many people close their eyes and 'do meditation' when receiving teachings, not lung or wang. I also have talked to someone about a text and she suddenly got upset: I don't understand what you are talking about! But i know that she attended a teaching of that text not too long ago.

Surely people can still practice very well without knowing things, depends on what reason for that not-knowing.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Paul » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:55 am

narraboth wrote:I have seen many people close their eyes and 'do meditation' when receiving teachings, not lung or wang.


I've seen this too. It's really very daft.

As for dzogchen texts I do seriously think that they can be problematic if you read them before receiving transmission and experiencing rigpa. Far too easy to make a very resiliant 'fake rigpa' that's hard to overcome. For me this is the number one reason to restrict a text - it can keep you in samsara for longer, spoiling your chance in this life to get very quickly liberated. I can't think of any other good reason, apart from the privacy of the writer of the text if they are writing about their inner experience and are still around trying to teach people.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Pero » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:53 am

narraboth wrote:If the 'admonition' exist, it's not created by chagdud tulku, it's the tradition in the not-too-long transmission lineage of this text, as I said above.

I don't know if it's tradition or not but in the book itself, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje nor Dudjom Lingpa give any admonitions. It is only in the preface by Chagdud Tulku.


I have seen many people close their eyes and 'do meditation' when receiving teachings, not lung or wang.

Hm, I think that would be kind of hard to tell if true or not, perhaps they were just trying to avoid visual distractions and listen intently. :smile:
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Re: Restricted books

Postby narraboth » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:09 am

Pero wrote:
narraboth wrote:If the 'admonition' exist, it's not created by chagdud tulku, it's the tradition in the not-too-long transmission lineage of this text, as I said above.

I don't know if it's tradition or not but in the book itself, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje nor Dudjom Lingpa give any admonitions. It is only in the preface by Chagdud Tulku.


I have seen many people close their eyes and 'do meditation' when receiving teachings, not lung or wang.

Hm, I think that would be kind of hard to tell if true or not, perhaps they were just trying to avoid visual distractions and listen intently. :smile:


Again, it's not just Chagdud tulku
I said tulku Thondup rinpoche said that too in preface of chinese version, qouting Kunzang Nyima (grandson and speech tulku of dudjom lingpa). It is not 'in the book' but that's the tradition of this teaching. (There is a geshe played an important role in the lineage, because there are at least two versions of this book; and it's said that dudjom lingpa requested that geshe to check his work for publication. It's in the introduction of one of this book's chinese translation. The opinion of HH Dudjom Rinpoche Jigdral yeshe dorje is important but HH holded one branch of lineage. There are other dudjom tulkus and there are also many dudjom lingpa's blood lineage holders.... Dudjom Rinpoche didn't say it's not restricted anyway. I don't know how Dudjom Rinpoche taught this text, openly or not openly; but I couldn't find any record saying Dudjom Rinpoche openly gave this teaching.)

Whatever, if people want to read, nothing can stop them since it's published. Especially if your master allows you to read, there shouldn't be a problem.

About 'closing eyes' for explanation teaching, yeah, it's hard to know. You will only know when you discuss the content with them, see how they can sitting there for 2 hours and have little idea what was taught. Believe me, closing eyes will only 'distract' you more. :)
I have heard someone happily told others 'the blessing today is very strong, I was sitting in front of rinpoche receiving blessing'. That was a explanation teaching; he sit just in front of rinpoche doing 'meditation' when rinpoche explaining lines on the texts.

I think the old tibetan teaching way is not bad: an exam after explanation teaching, if one fails, corporal punishment comes. :tongue:
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Pero » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:37 am

narraboth wrote:I said tulku Thondup rinpoche said that too in preface of chinese version, qouting Kunzang Nyima (grandson and speech tulku of dudjom lingpa). It is not 'in the book' but that's the tradition of this teaching. (There is a geshe played an important role in the lineage, because there are at least two versions of this book; and it's said that dudjom lingpa requested that geshe to check his work for publication. It's in the introduction of one of this book's chinese translation. The opinion of HH Dudjom Rinpoche Jigdral yeshe dorje is important but HH holded one branch of lineage. There are other dudjom tulkus and there are also many dudjom lingpa's blood lineage holders.... Dudjom Rinpoche didn't say it's not restricted anyway. I don't know how Dudjom Rinpoche taught this text, openly or not openly; but I couldn't find any record saying Dudjom Rinpoche openly gave this teaching.)


Ah got it.

Believe me, closing eyes will only 'distract' you more. :)

Haha yes, I think that's probably true in general too, but not always.

I have heard someone happily told others 'the blessing today is very strong, I was sitting in front of rinpoche receiving blessing'. That was a explanation teaching; he sit just in front of rinpoche doing 'meditation' when rinpoche explaining lines on the texts.

Yeah I understand what you mean. It's unfortunate but still better than nothing.

I think the old tibetan teaching way is not bad: an exam after explanation teaching, if one fails, corporal punishment comes. :tongue:

:rolling:
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Re: Restricted books

Postby pemachophel » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:05 pm

Narraboth,

What is the name of the wang which empowers one to read any text, lung or no lung? Sounds like something useful to ask for at an appropriate time and place.

All,

Seems to me that most of the arguments in this thread are based on reason, i.e., conceptual mind. However, in my experience, lung is something mystical/magical/beyond reason/non-conceptual, same as wang.

Let me try to explain myself a little better through an analogy. A couple of years ago, H.H. Karma Kuchen came to Boulder to give the Three Roots wangs of Longchen Nyingthig (Rigdzin Dupa, Palchen Dupa, and Yumka Dechen Gyalmo). Some time afterward, Loppon Rechung of Mipham Shedra was explaining how fortunate everyone was in receiving those wangs from H.H. Karma Kuchen. He said that there is a big difference in the ability to accomplish those practices depending on who one receives them from and that H.H.'s blessings were far superior to most other lamas who might give the same wangs. (Here I'm just reporting Loppon's opinion; I don't mean to judge anyone else's Lama(s).) This, to me, is not something rational.

In the same way, receiving lung also confers an ability to understand and practice the test in question. Yes, it insures continuity of the lineage. Yes, it helps protect from the develop of erroneous ideas in a person without the proper basis. But, I think it goes beyond these rationalizations. This is why one might spend quite of bit of time, effort, and, yes, money trying to receive a specific text from a specific Teacher, one who can confer special blessings, therefore allowing one faster, better realization of the intent of the text. Many years ago, I was fortunate enough to receive some Longchen Nyingthig lungs from H.E. Dodrupchen Rinpoche during His first visit to the U.S. At the time, my Teacher told us how lucky we were to receive these lungs from Dodrup Rinpoche as one of the most important lineage holders of the LN. All the lungs happened in Tibetan and none of us students understood a word of it. So what my Teacher was talking about was nothing rational. He was talking about blessings and the practical results of blessings.

As another example of the magical/non-rational effects of mantrayana practice, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche has said that, in his experience, He once studied a specific text. Then, He happened to do a bum of mandala offerings. When He came back to that same text, the accumulation of merit from the mandala offerings allowed Him to understand that same text at a much deeper, more meaningful level. Although this story is not about lung, it does, I think, exemplify how non-rational factors/practices may affect the study and successful implementation of Buddhist texts.

Bottom line, if I know that a certain text is traditionally restricted, I will not read that text until or unless I receive lung or other permission to do so from one of my Teachers. If I really want to read that text, I will do whatever it takes to receive that lung. Further, when receiving lung, there are visualizations that are traditionally done, such as transforming the Teacher, Teaching, place, time, and students into the five certainties. Lama Dawa goes further and actually gives a visualization of the teachings enters the ears and traveling via the nadis to the heart. These practices enhance the receiving of lung and likewise function in a non-rational, magical way.

I think it's important to remember that the Sang-ngak Thek-pa/Secret Mantrayana is magic and mostly functions via faith and devotion. Hence, the primary importance of Guru Yoga.

These are just my personal opinions, and, if I'm wrong about them in any way, I admit my mistakes and am sorry for them.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:55 pm

pemachophel wrote:Narraboth,

What is the name of the wang which empowers one to read any text, lung or no lung? Sounds like something useful to ask for at an appropriate time and place.



It is called the poti lung dbang or " text transmission empowerment ". It is the system of Sangye Lingpa, coming from the Lama Gondu cycle.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby narraboth » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:38 pm

Namdrol wrote:
pemachophel wrote:Narraboth,

What is the name of the wang which empowers one to read any text, lung or no lung? Sounds like something useful to ask for at an appropriate time and place.


It is called the poti lung dbang or " text transmission empowerment ". It is the system of Sangye Lingpa, coming from the Lama Gondu cycle.


Yeah, that's a famous kind of.

to pemachophel:

I think the effect is a little bit like lung without reading... not totally the same though.
You will be allowed to read texts after the ritual but you can't transmit it to others, which means you won't be able to give lung of a text that you haven't heard its lung.
You can try to request it but as far as I know it usually follows one or many major high-empowerments. I doubt if a lama would give this lung wang to people who haven't received any major empowerment. I have a feeling that it's like an appendix empowerment of a series of major empowerments, I think that's where lamas usually put this lung wang at.

Lung is said to be powerful, DKR emphasises it a lot, although sometimes I found it can be a bit hard to understand why. For me, I am a chinese, we have mahapitaka too but we never think that we need to read the text to transmit lineage. Maybe for vajrayana text I can understand more. Still, I follow the rule.

And ideally, wang lung tri should be together as a complete teaching course; sometimes it's not necessary to get all three, but there should be a reason for that. (For example the text is easy to understand or the person is well trained so doesn't really need a tri; the person has received wang of same diety in other tradition so only lung would be enough, etc)

For Dzogchen text, it's better to have dzogchen wang, lung of the text, and the best a tri.
However, the restriction we were talking about can be more than that: some lama just won't let students read tred chod text before they actually practice tred chod, no matter they received dzogchen wang/lung or not (surely they can't get the tri since they are not allowed to read it). Again, it's about to protect people from 'knowing something too early thus ruin them'.
Wang, lung and tri are really important, but unfortunately these still won't 100% keep you from conceptional idea.

But your question should be easily solved: you will ask your lama for a lung, you just also ask if you can read it after the lung, simple.
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