Restricted books

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Restricted books

Postby Paul » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:02 pm

What makes a text or teaching 'restricted'? Are there any uniform guidelines?

I find it interesting that there are two English translations of 'Flight of the Garuda' out there, one being restricted and the other being open.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:09 pm

Hayagriva wrote:What makes a text or teaching 'restricted'? Are there any uniform guidelines?

I find it interesting that there are two English translations of 'Flight of the Garuda' out there, one being restricted and the other being open.



Eric Pema Kunzang's is restricted because he was following the advice of Dilgo Khyentse. Dowman's is not restricted, I assume, because he felt comfortable publishing it.

There is no central authority or committee that determines these things.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Paul » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:23 pm

Thanks Namdrol.

I was talking to a dharma friend ans I mentioned that one of my favourite dharma books I've ever come across is 'Buddhahood Without Meditation' - a freely available text. They were very adamant I shouldn't read it without a lung and full teaching on it. They went so far as to say it would be completely unintelligable to someone who hadn't had these. I can see merit in this position, but it seemed to go way too far in my opinion.

Obviously that's just my take on the conversation, but what's your view on this kind of position? I know there would be many out there in agreement, and many others who'd object.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Restricted books

Postby gnegirl » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:34 pm

Hayagriva wrote:Thanks Namdrol.

I was talking to a dharma friend ans I mentioned that one of my favourite dharma books I've ever come across is 'Buddhahood Without Meditation' - a freely available text. They were very adamant I shouldn't read it without a lung and full teaching on it. They went so far as to say it would be completely unintelligable to someone who hadn't had these. I can see merit in this position, but it seemed to go way too far in my opinion.

Obviously that's just my take on the conversation, but what's your view on this kind of position? I know there would be many out there in agreement, and many others who'd object.


YMMV, but i read it sections of it before and after receiving lung for it, and it seemed clearer afterward. My teacher went so far as to have us concentrate on one chapter in particular.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Pero » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:39 pm

Hayagriva wrote:I was talking to a dharma friend ans I mentioned that one of my favourite dharma books I've ever come across is 'Buddhahood Without Meditation' - a freely available text. They were very adamant I shouldn't read it without a lung and full teaching on it. They went so far as to say it would be completely unintelligable to someone who hadn't had these. I can see merit in this position, but it seemed to go way too far in my opinion.

Obviously that's just my take on the conversation, but what's your view on this kind of position? I know there would be many out there in agreement, and many others who'd object.

I'm not Namdrol hehe, but I don't agree with it. I've read most of BWM and as far as I remember I didn't think it was unintelligible. To me it wasn't really a book to "read" though, but more like a meditation manual or something. I think that if you've received Dzogchen teachings in general and some explanation of the four samayas in particular it shouldn't be a problem. I'm not really big on lungs for texts though. IMO in general it's fine to read Dzogchen texts if you've received Dzogchen teachings. If you've received a teaching on trekcho from let's say Vima Nyingthig, it would kind of silly that you wouldn't be able to read about trekcho in Khandro Nyingthig, as trekcho is trekcho after all.

edit: That's why I don't understand the need to impose restrictions like "you must have completed ngondro" on people who have received a corresponding transmission.

I suppose there could be some specific instructions that you'd need a specific transmission of though (edit: for practice that is).

As for your original question, I think though there is no committee, in general it's the translator's teachers who decide what's publicly available or not like Malcolm mentioned Dilgo Khyentse's advice to Erik Pema Kunsang.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Paul » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:52 pm

Pero wrote:
Hayagriva wrote:I was talking to a dharma friend ans I mentioned that one of my favourite dharma books I've ever come across is 'Buddhahood Without Meditation' - a freely available text. They were very adamant I shouldn't read it without a lung and full teaching on it. They went so far as to say it would be completely unintelligable to someone who hadn't had these. I can see merit in this position, but it seemed to go way too far in my opinion.

Obviously that's just my take on the conversation, but what's your view on this kind of position? I know there would be many out there in agreement, and many others who'd object.

I'm not Namdrol hehe, but I don't agree with it. I've read most of BWM and as far as I remember I didn't think it was unintelligible. To me it wasn't really a book to "read" though, but more like a meditation manual or something. I think that if you've received Dzogchen teachings in general and some explanation of the four samayas in particular it shouldn't be a problem. I'm not really big on lungs for texts though. IMO in general it's fine to read Dzogchen texts if you've received Dzogchen teachings. If you've received a teaching on trekcho from let's say Vima Nyingthig, it would kind of silly that you wouldn't be able to read about trekcho in Khandro Nyingthig, as trekcho is trekcho after all.
I suppose there could be some specific instructions that you'd need a specific transmission of though.


I agree completely.

In my very uneducated view, lungs are a ritualised form of actually giving an oral teaching and I'm not that sure of the point if they are in Tibetan. I have been at lungs where the Tibetan is read at speed, but the English is slowly read out. This was really an excellent way to do it.

Maybe there is actually a link made between the teacher and student somehow, similar to a wang - I don't know.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:05 pm

Hayagriva wrote:Thanks Namdrol.

I was talking to a dharma friend ans I mentioned that one of my favourite dharma books I've ever come across is 'Buddhahood Without Meditation' - a freely available text. They were very adamant I shouldn't read it without a lung and full teaching on it. They went so far as to say it would be completely unintelligable to someone who hadn't had these. I can see merit in this position, but it seemed to go way too far in my opinion.

Obviously that's just my take on the conversation, but what's your view on this kind of position? I know there would be many out there in agreement, and many others who'd object.



I think that there are some people who would understand, other people who would not.

I think there is a lot of fanaticism around these things that is unhealthy and counterproductive.
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Restricted books

Postby Josef » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:40 pm

Namdrol wrote:

I think there is a lot of fanaticism around these things that is unhealthy and counterproductive.


I agree.
It would make sense to me that once a student has received the rigpai tsal wang and instructions to practice Dzogchen from their teachers that they would be permitted to study the teachings as they see fit.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Paul » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:11 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

I think there is a lot of fanaticism around these things that is unhealthy and counterproductive.


I agree.
It would make sense to me that once a student has received the rigpai tsal wang and instructions to practice Dzogchen from their teachers that they would be permitted to study the teachings as they see fit.


This seems to match what Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche says, at least about his own books.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Astus » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:47 pm

"According to the Tibetan tradition, true vipashyana is to see the natural state while being free of dualistic clinging. Traditionally, this natural state is introduced after the practitioner has gone through the ngöndro, the 'preliminary practices of the four or five times hundred thousand', as well as the yidam practice with its detailed recitations. After completing these, the student is given the pointing-out instruction according to the tradition of Dzogchen or Mahamudra or one of the other traditions of ultimate wisdom. That is the general way, but times have changed somewhat in the sense that many people these days are earnestly drawn to the essential teachings from the beginning. My late father, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, used to give the pointing-out instruction to whomever was sincerely interested, whether that person was a long-term practitioner or a beginner. he also gave me the mandate to do so."
(Chokyi Nyima: Present Fresh Wakefulness, p. 39-40)

IIRC, the BWM book is advertised on the back cover as an initiatory book that can generate insight simply by reading. Then why the need for being introduced before being introduced?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Josef » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:18 pm

Astus wrote:
IIRC, the BWM book is advertised on the back cover as an initiatory book that can generate insight simply by reading. Then why the need for being introduced before being introduced?

Back cover copy is intended to sell books. Its not the best source for accurate info on this type of thing even if the book itself comes from an excellent source.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby kirtu » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:19 pm

Hayagriva wrote:Thanks Namdrol.

I was talking to a dharma friend ans I mentioned that one of my favourite dharma books I've ever come across is 'Buddhahood Without Meditation' - a freely available text.


Sure why not? It's just a series of stories and dreams that appeared to Dudjom Rinpoche and he was illiterate. Can't be too much in there.

They were very adamant I shouldn't read it without a lung


That's true. Dudjom Rinpoche designated this as a restricted text. But he was just some 19th century Tibetan village dude out in the middle of nowhere.

...and full teaching on it. They went so far as to say it would be completely unintelligable to someone who hadn't had these.


Full teaching is best. Khenpo Tsewang (Palyul) has been going over it piece by piece at a few of the Palyul centers.

But completely unintelligible ? Depends on the person. Much of the first half should be at least superficially intelligible.

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Re: Restricted books

Postby heart » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:19 pm

Astus wrote:"According to the Tibetan tradition, true vipashyana is to see the natural state while being free of dualistic clinging. Traditionally, this natural state is introduced after the practitioner has gone through the ngöndro, the 'preliminary practices of the four or five times hundred thousand', as well as the yidam practice with its detailed recitations. After completing these, the student is given the pointing-out instruction according to the tradition of Dzogchen or Mahamudra or one of the other traditions of ultimate wisdom. That is the general way, but times have changed somewhat in the sense that many people these days are earnestly drawn to the essential teachings from the beginning. My late father, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, used to give the pointing-out instruction to whomever was sincerely interested, whether that person was a long-term practitioner or a beginner. he also gave me the mandate to do so."
(Chokyi Nyima: Present Fresh Wakefulness, p. 39-40)

IIRC, the BWM book is advertised on the back cover as an initiatory book that can generate insight simply by reading. Then why the need for being introduced before being introduced?


Could you rephrase the question, I find it difficult to understand? Anyway "Present fresh wakefulness" is not an restricted book nor to my knowledge is it advertised as an "initiatory book that can generate insight simply by reading2.

/magnus
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Re: Restricted books

Postby kirtu » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:22 pm

Astus wrote:"According to the Tibetan tradition, true vipashyana is to see the natural state while being free of dualistic clinging. Traditionally, this natural state is introduced after the practitioner has gone through the ngöndro, the 'preliminary practices of the four or five times hundred thousand', as well as the yidam practice with its detailed recitations. After completing these, the student is given the pointing-out instruction according to the tradition of Dzogchen or Mahamudra or one of the other traditions of ultimate wisdom. That is the general way, but times have changed somewhat in the sense that many people these days are earnestly drawn to the essential teachings from the beginning. My late father, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, used to give the pointing-out instruction to whomever was sincerely interested, whether that person was a long-term practitioner or a beginner. he also gave me the mandate to do so."
(Chokyi Nyima: Present Fresh Wakefulness, p. 39-40)

IIRC, the BWM book is advertised on the back cover as an initiatory book that can generate insight simply by reading. Then why the need for being introduced before being introduced?


If Chokyi Nyima wrote that the book could result in insight being generated then I'd take that as valid. Tulku Urgyen was famous for giving pointing out instruction to anyone interested.

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Re: Restricted books

Postby Astus » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:07 pm

The quote and my comment on the book is not strictly related.

"This text belongs to the category of atiyoga, the highest of the nine vehicles that constitute the Buddhist path. Moreover, it is from the short lineage of Dudjom Lingpa, a direct transmission of the Great Perfection approach so powerful that even hearing it read aloud ensures that the listener will eventually escape the suffering of samsara.
It should be remembered, however, that to benefit fully from the Nang-jang, one must receive empowerment, oral transmission, and teachings from a qualified Dzogchhen master."

(BWM, page v)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Josef » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:54 pm

Astus wrote:
"This text belongs to the category of atiyoga, the highest of the nine vehicles that constitute the Buddhist path. Moreover, it is from the short lineage of Dudjom Lingpa, a direct transmission of the Great Perfection approach so powerful that even hearing it read aloud ensures that the listener will eventually escape the suffering of samsara.
It should be remembered, however, that to benefit fully from the Nang-jang, one must receive empowerment, oral transmission, and teachings from a qualified Dzogchhen master."

(BWM, page v)

This is where it gets tricky.
If someone has received the rigpai tsal wang, permission to practice trekcho and togal, and the lung and tri for a text like the Yeshe Lama for instance should they be allowed to read Buddhahood Without Meditation and other Dzogchen texts like it?
In my opinion the answer is yes. It just doesnt make sense to me that one would have to pursue the lung for every text they wish to study when they have already received the requisite empowerments, permissions, and upadesha to completely devote themselves to Dzogchen from their root lama(s).
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Re: Restricted books

Postby narraboth » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:01 pm

kirtu wrote:
Hayagriva wrote:

They were very adamant I shouldn't read it without a lung


That's true. Dudjom Rinpoche designated this as a restricted text. But he was just some 19th century Tibetan village dude out in the middle of nowhere.


Kirt


you sure you know what you are talking about?

and when you said 'can't be too much in there', were you sarcastic or???
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Re: Restricted books

Postby narraboth » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:19 pm

Nangwa wrote:If someone has received the rigpai tsal wang, permission to practice trekcho and togal, and the lung and tri for a text like the Yeshe Lama for instance should they be allowed to read Buddhahood Without Meditation and other Dzogchen texts like it?
In my opinion the answer is yes. It just doesnt make sense to me that one would have to pursue the lung for every text they wish to study when they have already received the requisite empowerments, permissions, and upadesha to completely devote themselves to Dzogchen from their root lama(s).


There is actually an empowerment that allows you to read all texts.

But the main thing here is that you don't ignore your guru's advice, no matter it 'makes sense' or not.
Even I believe that after receiving rigpa tsal wang people can read all sorts of dzogchen texts, once my lama tells me don't do it without lung, i won't do it. You don't have too much 'your opinion' if you are 'completely devote yourself to Dzogchen from your root lama'.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby Josef » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:47 pm

narraboth wrote:
Nangwa wrote:If someone has received the rigpai tsal wang, permission to practice trekcho and togal, and the lung and tri for a text like the Yeshe Lama for instance should they be allowed to read Buddhahood Without Meditation and other Dzogchen texts like it?
In my opinion the answer is yes. It just doesnt make sense to me that one would have to pursue the lung for every text they wish to study when they have already received the requisite empowerments, permissions, and upadesha to completely devote themselves to Dzogchen from their root lama(s).


There is actually an empowerment that allows you to read all texts.

But the main thing here is that you don't ignore your guru's advice, no matter it 'makes sense' or not.
Even I believe that after receiving rigpa tsal wang people can read all sorts of dzogchen texts, once my lama tells me don't do it without lung, i won't do it. You don't have too much 'your opinion' if you are 'completely devote yourself to Dzogchen from your root lama'.

I agree. It should be between the student and their root lama.
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Re: Restricted books

Postby kirtu » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:26 pm

narraboth wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Hayagriva wrote:

They were very adamant I shouldn't read it without a lung


That's true. Dudjom Rinpoche designated this as a restricted text. But he was just some 19th century Tibetan village dude out in the middle of nowhere.


you sure you know what you are talking about?


What part? Dudjom Lingpa was illiterate, was a village terton, was out in the middle of nowhere for Tibet (okay maybe not totally nowhere but sort of somewhere around Dege and Nangchen and today they aren't even dots on a map [which reminds me - an ethno-political/cultural map of 19th century Tibet would be really useful]).

and when you said 'can't be too much in there', were you sarcastic or???


Amongst native English speakers the sarcasm is very obvious taken as a whole. Even to borderline Aspergers people like me.

I think the power of the text is overwhelming and it is clear by at least the second chapter that there is really a whole lot here going on that just a record of stories of visions and dreams (at least not ordinary visions or dreams).

Kirt
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