Naturally occuring

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Naturally occuring

Postby sangyey » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:46 am

Okay, yes emptiness is something naturally occurring...........but............every single action for the benefit of others....is this something naturally occurring?
User avatar
sangyey
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby ground » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:53 am

What does "naturally occurring" mean? Is it other than "dependently arising"?

kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby Jangchup Donden » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:01 am

sangyey wrote:Okay, yes emptiness is something naturally occurring...........but............every single action for the benefit of others....is this something naturally occurring?


I think you might be confusing emptiness with something.
User avatar
Jangchup Donden
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:44 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby Josef » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:19 am

sangyey wrote:Okay, yes emptiness is something naturally occurring...........but............every single action for the benefit of others....is this something naturally occurring?

Hi Sangyey,
Emptiness doesn't really "occur".
Benefiting beings is a naturally manifesting quality of realized beings.
Does that help? Maybe if you talk out your question a bit more we can give you some more useful advice or insight.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby sangyey » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:35 pm

Well, I remember hearing (I think) from HH Dalai Lama that emptiness and bodhicitta are something that actually occurs within our own minds. I have also been taught that a profound practice of Dharma is one that is in accordance with the way things are. For example, we can see how the precondition for meditative serenity of having little desire is in accordance with the way things are (emptiness) in that having less grasping and desire our minds will be more calm and therefore easier to achieve meditative serenity. But then the question I had was geared more towards the method aspect of the path and if bodhicitta (perhaps you could say love and compassion) is naturally occurring in us then it would seem that doing every action (motivated out of that love and compassion) would be a beneficial thing to do because it is a practice that accords with the way things since this bodhicitta is something occurring within ourselves......

and Shantideva would have it right ........

'Thus sentient beings will be my chief concern.
And everything I see my body has
Will all be seized and offered
For the use and service of all other beings.'

...

'Those desiring speedily to be
A refuge for themselves and others
Should make the interchange of "I" and "other,"
And thus embrace a sacred mystery."

...

"Directly, then, or indirectly,
Do nothing that is not for others' sake.
And solely for their welfare dedicate
Your every action to the gaining of enlightenment."

-Shantideva
User avatar
sangyey
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby ground » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:03 pm

sangyey wrote:... and if bodhicitta (perhaps you could say love and compassion)


"Bodhicitta" is not "love and compassion".

But every action motivated by "bodhicitta" is very beneficial, yes.


Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby Will » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:52 pm

I think what sangey is aiming at is that emptiness was not put together by sages to explain reality, but sunyata is actually & naturally the way everything is. It was only re-discovered by Nagarjuna and others.

To his question though, I lean toward thinking bodhicitta is not natural to humans, but can be unfolded. When engaged bodhicitta is functioning truly, then yes, even while sleeping much merit or good karma is won.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby sangyey » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:19 pm

Yes, that is more in terms of what I was trying to say. I am unsure on the point if love and compassion is something occurring in us because I hear from teachers that these qualities are inherent like when Maitreya says 'stains are adventitious, qualities are inherent' I guess talking about tathagathagarbha but then I hear HH Dalai lama saying that the clear light nature is actually something neutral which then can be used as a basis to develop love and compassion.
User avatar
sangyey
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:04 pm

Will wrote:To his question though, I lean toward thinking bodhicitta is not natural to humans, but can be unfolded.
Really? And what of the tathagatagarbha then?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9273
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby Will » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:18 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Will wrote:To his question though, I lean toward thinking bodhicitta is not natural to humans, but can be unfolded.
Really? And what of the tathagatagarbha then?
:namaste:


And what of sunyata then? See the problem? That is why some Mahayanists say buddha-nature is not, cannot be "inherent"; with a full buddha just waiting to be uncovered. Tathagatagarbha as a potential I can see, but not an innate or inherent one.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby ngodrup » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:28 pm

H. H. the Dalai Lama often says that love, kindness and compassion
are natural phenomena. It may be that they are survival strategies,
but on the other hand since emptiness has compassion within it,
it may be something more basic-- certainly at the level of fruit and/
or base. At the level of path, we intentionally practice four immeasurables,
six perfections and specific acts of kindness.

So it seems where good qualities are concerned, we can't simply
leave it there, we ought to encourage and co-operate with these.
Don't you think?
ngodrup
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:58 pm

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:22 pm

Will wrote:And what of sunyata then? See the problem? That is why some Mahayanists say buddha-nature is not, cannot be "inherent"; with a full buddha just waiting to be uncovered. Tathagatagarbha as a potential I can see, but not an innate or inherent one.
If a potential is not innate or inherent then it's not a potential then is it? If a capacity/potential is not inherent then it cannot be developed, it has to be acquired.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9273
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby sangyey » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:20 pm

As far as I can see it there is only two possible things we can be doing with our time. One is either resting in emptiness or two would be working for the benefit of others.
User avatar
sangyey
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby Pero » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:25 pm

sangyey wrote:As far as I can see it there is only two possible things we can be doing with our time. One is either resting in emptiness or two would be working for the benefit of others.

You think the two are mutually exclusive?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby sangyey » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:27 pm

Of course not :smile:
User avatar
sangyey
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby sangyey » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:32 pm

If I think about bodhicitta being natural like reality itself in terms of interdependence I mean maybe some ant in mexico would naturally be happy to know that someone is working for their benefit in the back of their minds while they are going about their daily living :twothumbsup:
User avatar
sangyey
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby Anders » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:13 am

sangyey wrote:Of course not :smile:

They do n't have be but for most who are not mahasattvas., they often are, even for the very realised. It's all well and good to intellectually recognise our mental booundaries and divisions, but we also need a clear vision of our actual current capacity.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
User avatar
Anders
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby sangyey » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:35 am

If bodhicitta is something occurring within the reality then that very knowledge would make actions and working for the benefit of others easier to do just like how contemplating emptiness has the capacity to make things, well, I guess easier for myself especially since it is so something that just is.
User avatar
sangyey
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby Will » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:42 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Will wrote:And what of sunyata then? See the problem? That is why some Mahayanists say buddha-nature is not, cannot be "inherent"; with a full buddha just waiting to be uncovered. Tathagatagarbha as a potential I can see, but not an innate or inherent one.
If a potential is not innate or inherent then it's not a potential then is it? If a capacity/potential is not inherent then it cannot be developed, it has to be acquired.
:namaste:


Does a field of unplowed earth have the inherent potential of corn on the cob? Does the sun have the inherent potential of corn on the cob? Does the rain have the inherent potential of corn on the cob? Does the farmer have the inherent potential of corn on the cob? Does fertilizer have the inherent potential of corn on the cob? Does seed corn have the inherent potential of corn on the cob?

No to all of them. So I guess when we "acquire" it at the market God must have created it out of nothing.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am

Re: Naturally occuring

Postby ground » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:29 am

Bodhicitta is a skill in means. It is a thought initially arising from love and compassion but it culminates in a one-pointed intent. In that it is a one-pointed intent it is concentration. Concentration has the effect to exclude all that is not its object. So in this way "continuing in conventional bodhicitta" actually boils down to a temporary exclusion of ignorance and therefore all deeds done thusly concentrated in the aftermath of love and compassion are very beneficial in that they lead to great merit which is the basis for further realizations as the effects of the concentration themselves are a basis for further realizations.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Next

Return to Tibetan Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], heart, Tanaduk and 28 guests

>