Finding a teacher...

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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby ground » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:25 am

Please do not misconstrue my posts as rejection of vajrayana because I am not rejecting it. I am trying to keep a balanced attitude.
My position is however that the view of dependent origination necessarily has to be the predominant basis of any path or vehicle.

Kind regards
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:19 am

TMingyur wrote:Please do not misconstrue my posts as rejection of vajrayana because I am not rejecting it. I am trying to keep a balanced attitude.
My position is however that the view of dependent origination necessarily has to be the predominant basis of any path or vehicle.

Kind regards


Vows are predicated on dependent origination.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:37 am

TMingyur wrote:
See, I feel that actually these guys that discuss all their strange views in internet forums under the header of "vajrayana" actually are breaking their samaya.


Samaya is between master and student. No need to make assumptions about another's samaya. There are some things that should in general never be openly discussed, but others may be helpful to discuss to clarify misunderstandings about that which is already publicly disseminated.

You may even read views which assign some sort of "magic power" to some gurus or deluded beings asserting that they are somehow "haunted by demons" ... all this I consider to be an outflow which seems to be specific for the danger involved with vajrayana. I do not assert that these views are vajrayana views but I am asserting that these views are manifestations of beings going astray after contacting vajrayana views.


It appears you are quite confused about a number of things, and I again will merely say that it seems you haven't looked deeply enough into these matters. There are certainly many confused views about vajrayana circulating around the web, this is why one needs to seek teachings from a qualified master, and receive clarification about aspects which may appear questionable to you on the surface. To judge the entire scientific field of physics based on attending a few days of a rowdy high school physics class would be a bit misguided, don't you think? Instead of basing your opinions of Vajrayana on the internet debates of anonymous people, some of which may not truly even qualify as vajrayana pracititioners, many of which most likely haven't studied adequately, perhaps it would be more suitable to visit one of the great monastic institutions and listen to the highly educated in debate.. that is, if you have decided observing debates is the most supreme way to learn about a subject. I am not so sure. . .
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby ground » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:42 am

Adamantine wrote:.. that is, if you have decided observing debates is the most supreme way to learn about a subject. I am not so sure. . .


Actually I have decided that debates are just another way of applying what is mere convention. And debates only work efficiently if the debaters share the same conventions. Conventions can be agreed to or not.


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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:02 am

TMingyur wrote:
Adamantine wrote:.. that is, if you have decided observing debates is the most supreme way to learn about a subject. I am not so sure. . .


Actually I have decided that debates are just another way of applying what is mere convention. And debates only work efficiently if the debaters share the same conventions. Conventions can be agreed to or not.


Kind regards


And yet you are making judgments about an entire vehicle of the most sublime precious Dharma based on internet debates. There seems to be a lapse in logic here.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby heart » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:08 am

Inge wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Not quite the same as your general reading of it. . .It is an express train- In Vajrayana the chela is likened to a snake in a bamboo tube-- you'll either shoot straight to Buddhahood or directly to the hell realms. There is no in-between any longer. In the general 'rising and falling' that you speak of, there's many gradations from god, demi-god, animal, preta, human once again, etc.


If the image of the snake in the bamboo is correct, this must mean that at death you either attain Buddhahood or take rebirth in the hell realms. So someone entering Vajrayana will never again experience the hungry ghost, animal, human, asura of god realm. This must also mean that nobody that are now human can ever in any previous lifetime have practiced Vajrayana.

Do you agree with this?

Edit: or are the human realm within the bamboo tube?


The image of the snake in the empty bamboo tube is not a restricted to one life. You might not break samaya in this life but if you don't practice there is no realization.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby ground » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:10 am

Adamantine wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Adamantine wrote:.. that is, if you have decided observing debates is the most supreme way to learn about a subject. I am not so sure. . .


Actually I have decided that debates are just another way of applying what is mere convention. And debates only work efficiently if the debaters share the same conventions. Conventions can be agreed to or not.


Kind regards


And yet you are making judgments about an entire vehicle of the most sublime precious Dharma based on internet debates. There seems to be a lapse in logic here.


This is your misconception. I have clearly stated that I referred to the dangers of terms and terminology not to the "vehicle itself".

However when saying "the vehicle itself" I know that it cannot be found outside of the sphere of persons who practice what they have understood. And if their "practice" entails public debate in internet forums they of course affect the appearance of what cannot be found outside of the sphere of their activities.

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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:21 am

TMingyur wrote:


However when saying "the vehicle itself" I know that it cannot be found outside of the sphere of persons who practice what they have understood. And if their "practice" entails public debate in internet forums they of course affect the appearance of what cannot be found outside of the sphere of their activities.

Kind regards


And I am merely saying you are not being very diligent in your exploration if you confine your observation of vajrayana practitioners to internet forums. Why not instead seek the presence of sublime teachers who have born the fruit of the vajrayana path? Those who spend a lot of time on internet forums, instead of practicing, are probably not the cream of the crop! There are a lot of reasons to doubt this methodology of yours!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby ground » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:40 am

Adamantine wrote:
TMingyur wrote:


However when saying "the vehicle itself" I know that it cannot be found outside of the sphere of persons who practice what they have understood. And if their "practice" entails public debate in internet forums they of course affect the appearance of what cannot be found outside of the sphere of their activities.

Kind regards


And I am merely saying you are not being very diligent in your exploration if you confine your observation of vajrayana practitioners to internet forums. Why not instead seek the presence of sublime teachers who have born the fruit of the vajrayana path? Those who spend a lot of time on internet forums, instead of practicing, are probably not the cream of the crop! There are a lot of reasons to doubt this methodology of yours!


Of course you are right. Internet forums are certainly not a good source for some kinds of teachings (I am not saying "for all kinds of teachings"). But since I do not feel a need to seek out what you recommend it is just the way it is. My statement about "finding a teacher" which I admitted to be not complying with vajrayana tenets may indicate my not being a potential "genuine vajrayana practitioner" (or my "not having the capacity" for it) ... I say "not genuine" because actually I do apply some aspects of vajrayana simply because I experienced directly their usefulness without considering the broader context of it. So I do rely more on my experience than on tenets thus following the advice of the Buddha in the Kalama sutta.

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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:52 am

TMingyur wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
And I am merely saying you are not being very diligent in your exploration if you confine your observation of vajrayana practitioners to internet forums. Why not instead seek the presence of sublime teachers who have born the fruit of the vajrayana path? Those who spend a lot of time on internet forums, instead of practicing, are probably not the cream of the crop! There are a lot of reasons to doubt this methodology of yours!


Of course you are right. Internet forums are certainly not a good source for some kinds of teachings (I am not saying "for all kinds of teachings"). But since I do not feel a need to seek out what you recommend it is just the way it is.


Well, since "it is just the way it is", this is why I recommend keeping your judgments, which are based on your admittedly inferior research, to yourself when it comes to vajrayana questions.


My statement about "finding a teacher" which I admitted to be not complying with vajrayana tenets may indicate my not being a potential "genuine vajrayana practitioner" (or my "not having the capacity" for it) ... I say "not genuine" because actually I do apply some aspects of vajrayana simply because I experienced directly their usefulness without considering the broader context of it. So I do rely more on my experience than on tenets thus following the advice of the Buddha in the Kalama sutta.


It is truly impossible to really apply anything in the field of vajrayana without a guru. It's nice that you may feel some benefit from principles, but without making a connection to a qualified master of the diamond vehicle you won't be able to understand the true profundity of it. To say you rely on experience, following the Kalama sutta in regards to vajrayana, but at the same time admit you have not sought out even the most basic exposure to or experiences of vajrayana, is highly contradictory.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby ground » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:06 am

Adamantine wrote:To say you rely on experience, following the Kalama sutta in regards to vajrayana, but at the same time admit you have not sought out even the most basic exposure to or experiences of vajrayana, is highly contradictory.


Do I have admitted this? Well I attended some teachings.

But "not sought out even the most basic exposure" ... maybe, maybe not. I don't know.

The Buddha - as displayed in the sutta pitaka - was a pragmatist in the context of one goal only. Pragmatism is IMO the only valid approach considering dependent arising.

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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:09 am

To back track somewhat:

Samaya are directly in keeping with dependent origination. Like when guided by the Noble Eightfold Path one commits only virtuous acts of body, speech and mind and, dependent on these, one develops spiritually, in the same way if one adheres to Samaya, regulations that have been formulated by enlightened and realised masters, dependent on the actions that arise from following the directions of realised beings one develops spiritually (which according to Buddhism means that one reaches enlightenment).

You could compare Samaya to the path outlined in the Theravadran text Visuddhimagga, if you diligently follow the path then you will achieve enlightenment.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Ken1969 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:17 am

I was listening to Thubten Chodron's Lamrim teachings this morning, and she gave some good advice which was relevant to someone like me (new and without a connection to a teacher), and she said we could use Buddha as a teacher for the Lamrim meditation, Relying on a Spiritual Guide.

I liked that, since I usually just miss that Lamrim meditation out, since I don't have that connection with a teacher, yet!

Anyway, you lot carry on; I'm enjoying your discussion. :D
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Caz » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:18 am

Ken1969 wrote:I was listening to Thubten Chodron's Lamrim teachings this morning, and she gave some good advice which was relevant to someone like me (new and without a connection to a teacher), and she said we could use Buddha as a teacher for the Lamrim meditation, Relying on a Spiritual Guide.

I liked that, since I usually just miss that Lamrim meditation out, since I don't have that connection with a teacher, yet!

Anyway, you lot carry on; I'm enjoying your discussion. :D


Its always a nice Idea after all it is through the kindness of Buddha that teachers have appeared in this world, and when one has a spiritual guide one views them as inseperable. Lamrim is of the up most importance if one is not familiar with Lamrim then how can one correctly enter higher paths ??? even if one chooses not to practise Vajrayana one still has the Lamrim the old kadampa used to put a very heavy emphisis on Lamrim over tantric practises because it is a most important foundation of everything else :jumping:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:27 pm

Ken1969 wrote:I was listening to Thubten Chodron's Lamrim teachings this morning, and she gave some good advice which was relevant to someone like me (new and without a connection to a teacher), and she said we could use Buddha as a teacher for the Lamrim meditation, Relying on a Spiritual Guide.

I liked that, since I usually just miss that Lamrim meditation out, since I don't have that connection with a teacher, yet!

Anyway, you lot carry on; I'm enjoying your discussion. :D


That seems like a great approach.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby tamdrin » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:06 pm

heart wrote:
Inge wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Not quite the same as your general reading of it. . .It is an express train- In Vajrayana the chela is likened to a snake in a bamboo tube-- you'll either shoot straight to Buddhahood or directly to the hell realms. There is no in-between any longer. In the general 'rising and falling' that you speak of, there's many gradations from god, demi-god, animal, preta, human once again, etc.


If the image of the snake in the bamboo is correct, this must mean that at death you either attain Buddhahood or take rebirth in the hell realms. So someone entering Vajrayana will never again experience the hungry ghost, animal, human, asura of god realm. This must also mean that nobody that are now human can ever in any previous lifetime have practiced Vajrayana.

Do you agree with this?

Edit: or are the human realm within the bamboo tube?


The image of the snake in the empty bamboo tube is not a restricted to one life. You might not break samaya in this life but if you don't practice there is no realization.

/magnus



enlightenment has nothing to do with going "up" or "down"
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby tamdrin » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:09 pm

people make a big deal about samayas on the internet. . The essence of all the vows is following the 10 virtues.
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Josef » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:10 pm

tamdrin wrote:

enlightenment has nothing to do with going "up" or "down"


That may be true, but it doesnt negate the effectiveness of the analogy.
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby tamdrin » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:14 pm

Nangwa wrote:
tamdrin wrote:

enlightenment has nothing to do with going "up" or "down"


That may be true, but it doesnt negate the effectiveness of the analogy.



I remember Namdrol advised people not to read literature about the 3 vows haha
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Inge » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:21 pm

heart wrote:The image of the snake in the empty bamboo tube is not a restricted to one life. You might not break samaya in this life but if you don't practice there is no realization.

/magnus


If this is correct then there is hell realms, Buddhahood and other lives. Those other lives, are they restricted to the human realm? Or is it possible to enter the other realms also?

What are the content of the bamboo tube?
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