Finding a teacher...

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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Josef » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:28 pm

tamdrin wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
tamdrin wrote:

enlightenment has nothing to do with going "up" or "down"


That may be true, but it doesnt negate the effectiveness of the analogy.



I remember Namdrol advised people not to read literature about the 3 vows haha

I tend to agree with that. If you dont have the vows you shouldnt read about them.
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Josef » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:31 pm

Inge wrote:
heart wrote:The image of the snake in the empty bamboo tube is not a restricted to one life. You might not break samaya in this life but if you don't practice there is no realization.

/magnus


If this is correct then there is hell realms, Buddhahood and other lives. Those other lives, are they restricted to the human realm? Or is it possible to enter the other realms also?

What are the content of the bamboo tube?

Nope, the other lives are not restricted to the human realm.
The analogy means that one should not enter the Vajrayana path unless they are fully committed to maintaining the samaya's involved with it.
If you enter and break samaya and dont repair the vows its a serious downfall. If you maintain them and practice diligently there will be realization.
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby tamdrin » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:38 pm

personally I like the the idea of samaya as it is presented in the Mahamudra Upadesha.
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Josef » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:42 pm

tamdrin wrote:personally I like the the idea of samaya as it is presented in the Mahamudra Upadesha.

Thats an interesting point. One that I think is important.
Samaya is not some static set of vows. There are of course vows and they are presented to students but samaya functions on a level of connection and transmission between teacher, lineage, and student.
When this is the case ones samaya can function on the level of Anuyogatantra, Mahamudra, or Dzogchen.
Samaya is an energetic bond of continuity that is shared by practitioners, not just some static set of rules.
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Dharmaswede » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:15 am

TMingyur wrote:

You may even read views which assign some sort of "magic power" to some gurus or deluded beings asserting that they are somehow "haunted by demons" ... all this I consider to be an outflow which seems to be specific for the danger involved with vajrayana. I do not assert that these views are vajrayana views but I am asserting that these views are manifestations of beings going astray after contacting vajrayana views.


There are, no doubt, folks who end up more deluded after their contact with Vajrayana. That being said, in my view of Vajrayana, "magic powers" and "haunted by demons" are not delusions per se. We could probably discuss the specifics, such as the onthological status of demons in the conventional reality. Nonetheless, dealing with haunting demons is what healing chöd rituals are all about - to name but one example. And do I believe certain gurus have so called magical powers? Oh yes.

Mileage does vary!

Respectfully,

Jends
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby heart » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:30 am

tamdrin wrote:
heart wrote:
The image of the snake in the empty bamboo tube is not a restricted to one life. You might not break samaya in this life but if you don't practice there is no realization.

/magnus



enlightenment has nothing to do with going "up" or "down"



:smile: a Freudian slip I guess, only you think of it like that the rest of us is all thinking about is as parallel.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby heart » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:34 am

Inge wrote:
heart wrote:The image of the snake in the empty bamboo tube is not a restricted to one life. You might not break samaya in this life but if you don't practice there is no realization.

/magnus


If this is correct then there is hell realms, Buddhahood and other lives. Those other lives, are they restricted to the human realm? Or is it possible to enter the other realms also?

What are the content of the bamboo tube?


The content of the bamboo is the luminous vajrayana, the traveler is the confused mind. Of course other lives are not restricted in any way, it is your confusion that creates the circumstances for your rebirth.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby gnegirl » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:25 pm

Nangwa wrote:I tend to agree with that. If you dont have the vows you shouldnt read about them.


But if you DO have them, you should have some idea how to keep and repair them.
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:35 pm

gnegirl wrote:
Nangwa wrote:I tend to agree with that. If you dont have the vows you shouldnt read about them.


But if you DO have them, you should have some idea how to keep and repair them.

Absolutely. I think that if one is going to read commentaries on the 3 sets of vows though you should make an effort to read multiple interpretations and explanations, rather than just towing the line of ones chosen lineage.
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby gnegirl » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:40 pm

Nangwa wrote:
gnegirl wrote:
Nangwa wrote:I tend to agree with that. If you dont have the vows you shouldnt read about them.


But if you DO have them, you should have some idea how to keep and repair them.

Absolutely. I think that if one is going to read commentaries on the 3 sets of vows though you should make an effort to read multiple interpretations and explanations, rather than just towing the line of ones chosen lineage.


I dont see a problem with 'towing the line' of my lineage. Basically, the personal pith instructions of my root lama trumps anything i might read on the subject, after that, i would turn to commentaries in my lineage, then after that, branch out into others.

I respect all dharma commentaries, but for *me*, the things that apply most directly come from my lineage and my tsawai teacher. If that is 'towing the line of my lineage', then ya, i do that.
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:56 pm

My roots lama's instructions are number one for me as well.
What I mean is that I think its very useful in the context of studying the 3 vows and madhyamaka to read the commentaries of the other lineages so that we can make our own informed decisions about the key points.
These two topics have pretty diverse interpretations among Tibetan commentators. Personally, I have benefited greatly by exploring the different interpretations in order to make up my own mind rather than just conforming to lineage standards.
For instance, I'm a Nyingmapa who agrees with Gorampa's interpretations of Nagarjuna and I am fond of Ngari Panchen's vows texts and Dudjom Rinpoche's explanation of them. I think I was able to make these assessments after reading other viewpoints.
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby tamdrin » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:29 pm

heart wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
heart wrote:
The image of the snake in the empty bamboo tube is not a restricted to one life. You might not break samaya in this life but if you don't practice there is no realization.

/magnus



enlightenment has nothing to do with going "up" or "down"



:smile: a Freudian slip I guess, only you think of it like that the rest of us is all thinking about is as parallel.

/magnus



As i understood the metaphor, when a snake is in a bamboo tube it only has two choices going up the top which would be enlightenment (presumably by keeping the samayas), or going out the bottom which would be hell? You understand the tube to be parralel rather than pointing up and down, or what are you saying?
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby heart » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:44 pm

tamdrin wrote:As i understood the metaphor, when a snake is in a bamboo tube it only has two choices going up the top which would be enlightenment (presumably by keeping the samayas), or going out the bottom which would be hell? You understand the tube to be parralel rather than pointing up and down, or what are you saying?


Sorry, English is not my first language. I just noted that no one mentioned up and down except you. Like the Kunzang Mönlam mentions: "Ho! Everything - appearance and existence, samsara and nirvana, has a single ground, yet two paths and two fruitions, and magically displays as awareness or unawareness.".

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:00 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Karma depends on motivation ... it is not inherently caused by the application of words.

Kind regards


Karma is not caused. What an odd statement.

Communicating with words IS karma.

Perhaps considering the context (Tibetan forum) and the possible consequences of your actions (for a newbie) is a good path to follow before acting on your motivation. ;)
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby ground » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:34 am

Yeshe wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Karma depends on motivation ... it is not inherently caused by the application of words.

Kind regards


Karma is not caused. What an odd statement.


May be a too "abbreviated" sort of statement meaning: Karma is action and as such it is either done or/and accumulated and the karma vipaka is caused by the motivation that causes and accompanies the action until its completion.

Yeshe wrote:Communicating with words IS karma.

Yes, because it is action.

Yeshe wrote:Perhaps considering the context (Tibetan forum) and the possible consequences of your actions (for a newbie) is a good path to follow before acting on your motivation.

Hmh ... what possible consequences? See that depends on the one who considers. Possible consequences may also be clinging to a view that actually will block the progress of the path.

Kind regards
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby ground » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:04 am

TMingyur wrote:I am inclined to say "As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him" ... which of course does not comply with vajrayana tenets.


Or to put it differently:

Dear teacher, nobody before you has provided me with so much benefit. All teachers I have encountered before actually did not deliver anything meaningful. You are the opposite of all these learned and verbose teachers. I know from the depth of my heart that there cannot be anything in addition you can provide because your teaching actually already covered everything. Therefore I will not expect anything further, I will let go of all expectations and hopes as to the future, I will let go of you, teacher, i.e. having encountered you and received your teaching I will leave you again since you cannot teach me anything further. Any expectation to receive anything further actually would destroy all the benefit I have already received and would contradict the fact that what you have taught has already covered everything. If I would ever become a follower of you I would denigrate the precious teaching you delivered.

Kind regards
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby heart » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:19 am

TMingyur wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I am inclined to say "As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him" ... which of course does not comply with vajrayana tenets.


Or to put it differently:

Dear teacher, nobody before you has provided me with so much benefit. All teachers I have encountered before actually did not deliver anything meaningful. You are the opposite of all these learned and verbose teachers. I know from the depth of my heart that there cannot be anything in addition you can provide because your teaching actually already covered everything. Therefore I will not expect anything further, I will let go of all expectations and hopes as to the future, I will let go of you, teacher, i.e. having encountered you and received your teaching I will leave you again since you cannot teach me anything further. Any expectation to receive anything further actually would destroy all the benefit I have already received and would contradict the fact that what you have taught has already covered everything. If I would ever become a follower of you I would denigrate the precious teaching you delivered.

Kind regards


I am afraid that sounds very conceited from a Vajrayana point of view. Letting go of expectations might be good but then why would you expect him/her to don't be able to teach you anything more, very strange attitude.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby ground » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:26 am

heart wrote:I am afraid that sounds very conceited from a Vajrayana point of view.


Therefore I wrote "which of course does not comply with vajrayana tenets"

But we obviously do agree that the appearance of "being conceited" depends on the view.

When there is this then that will arise.

kind regards
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Sherab » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:19 am

TMingyur wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I am inclined to say "As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him" ... which of course does not comply with vajrayana tenets.


Or to put it differently:

Dear teacher, nobody before you has provided me with so much benefit. All teachers I have encountered before actually did not deliver anything meaningful. You are the opposite of all these learned and verbose teachers. I know from the depth of my heart that there cannot be anything in addition you can provide because your teaching actually already covered everything. Therefore I will not expect anything further, I will let go of all expectations and hopes as to the future, I will let go of you, teacher, i.e. having encountered you and received your teaching I will leave you again since you cannot teach me anything further. Any expectation to receive anything further actually would destroy all the benefit I have already received and would contradict the fact that what you have taught has already covered everything. If I would ever become a follower of you I would denigrate the precious teaching you delivered.

Kind regards

Perhaps this was why 500 monks left the assembly as stated in the Lotus Sutra, when the Buddha was about to give a new discourse. The monks must have thought that they were already equal to the Buddha and therefore need no further discourse.
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Re: Finding a teacher...

Postby Josef » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:27 pm

TMingyur wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I am inclined to say "As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him" ... which of course does not comply with vajrayana tenets.


Or to put it differently:

Dear teacher, nobody before you has provided me with so much benefit. All teachers I have encountered before actually did not deliver anything meaningful. You are the opposite of all these learned and verbose teachers. I know from the depth of my heart that there cannot be anything in addition you can provide because your teaching actually already covered everything. Therefore I will not expect anything further, I will let go of all expectations and hopes as to the future, I will let go of you, teacher, i.e. having encountered you and received your teaching I will leave you again since you cannot teach me anything further. Any expectation to receive anything further actually would destroy all the benefit I have already received and would contradict the fact that what you have taught has already covered everything. If I would ever become a follower of you I would denigrate the precious teaching you delivered.

Kind regards


This would be fine if the teachings and relationship with the teacher was something static. But it is not.
Tantra means continuity, the transmission of the teachings in the Vajrayana setting is not complete when a teacher stops giving the oral instructions (which doesnt really happen anyways). The idea of working with a teacher and his/her transmission is based upon movement, energy, and continuity and the fluid connection of samaya. Not on the idea of going to a teaching and then going home. The connection is much deeper, ongoing, and directly related to the implementation of the instructions.
To take sutra teachings and move on is one thing but that is simply not how it works in the Vajrayana/Mahamudra/Dzogchen setting.
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