Sigh...

[Pero]

What do you do when you see someone breaking his samaya and you can't do anything about it?

[conebeckham]

Pray.
Depending on your relationship, you could tell him/her...but that leads to all sorts of potential issues.

Best to pray, then.

[Jikan]

It would also be good (in my opinion) to check your own commitments, strengthen your own resolve, practice repentance, and so on.

It would also benefit to practice some and dedicate the merit to your friend.

[Ngawang Drolma]

It would also benefit to practice some and dedicate the merit to your friend.

[plwk]

Jikan is cool

[Adamantine]

What do you do when you see someone breaking his samaya and you can't do anything about it?

What level of samaya-break are we talking about here? Not keeping a regular practice commitment, harboring negative view towards the Vajra master, openly revealing secret teachings, or?

For most of us it's inevitable that we'll be breaking many samayas on a regular basis, because it's almost impossible to keep all of them purely and strictly all of the time unless we're pretty much enlightened already... but this presupposes that we are trying to keep them. . . and if there is at least some semblance of correct view, and attempt at recognition and accompanying remorse preceding actual confession practice then this shouldn't be too big of an obstacle..

But if someone is consciously, remorselessly breaking a major samaya and it seems they have no intention of ever repenting.. then I believe this qualifies as the type of person that one should avoid because the contamination can spread and create obstacles in one's own practice. If you can lovingly try to reason with them before they get to this point, then that certainly can be virtuous. I've done this myself and eventually it worked. . . not necessarily because of my own intervention but through many interdependent causes and conditions..

[kirtu]

But if someone is consciously, remorselessly breaking a major samaya and it seems they have no intention of ever repenting.. then I believe this qualifies as the type of person that one should avoid because the contamination can spread and create obstacles in one's own practice.

Well if this is the case then you need to point it out to them or address it to a lama or senior student so that they can point it out to them (before you avoid contact with them).

If you can lovingly try to reason with them before they get to this point, then that certainly can be virtuous.

Kirt

[Adamantine]

But if someone is consciously, remorselessly breaking a major samaya and it seems they have no intention of ever repenting.. then I believe this qualifies as the type of person that one should avoid because the contamination can spread and create obstacles in one's own practice.

Well if this is the case then you need to point it out to them or address it to a lama or senior student so that they can point it out to them (before you avoid contact with them).

If you can lovingly try to reason with them before they get to this point, then that certainly can be virtuous.

Kirt

Hmmnnn... what do you think about a situation where it seems clear that a vajra sangha member who you've taken empowerment under the same vajra master multiple times with, has renounced that vajra master? for instance, they cut off all contact with the guru and sangha, but they do still attend other teachings and tsoks, etc.. but when the name of the guru comes up, they ignore it and pretend they haven't heard-- so it seems clear there is negative view of the guru? or another version, they outright say there was something that happened that caused the break but will not say what it is? in both these situations, it seems dialogue is out of the question since there is no openness to communicating about it. . . outside of purely preaching at them which is not usually a skillful way to go about things..

[Blue Garuda]

Meditate on Compassion and seek compassionate actions.

This may include actions which are hard to perform, such as counseling them, explaining why you cannot support them, or even being wrathful if you think it will help them avoid harmful karma.

As others have indicated, if such actions are impossible, then out of compassion for other beings, you should pursue your own enlightenment without further contact.

If you share the same guru, also seek their advice.

[Pero]

What level of samaya-break are we talking about here? Not keeping a regular practice commitment, harboring negative view towards the Vajra master, openly revealing secret teachings, or?

Openly revealing secret teachings...
I don't really know this person, just a total stranger on the net. I simply asked him why he's doing it and received a pretty angry response threatening that just because I asked he's going to do it even more which next to making me feel bad, made me think he has some kind of grudge. This was weeks ago and to my relief he hasn't actually done anything more, so I hoped he changed his mind but this weekend he did it again...

But if someone is consciously, remorselessly breaking a major samaya and it seems they have no intention of ever repenting..

I'm not sure he considers it breaking samaya, but then it's pretty likely he might not believe in it anyway. He claims to be doing it for others or something, though I don't believe that since if that were true there'd be no need for an angry response to a simple question.

then I believe this qualifies as the type of person that one should avoid because the contamination can spread and create obstacles in one's own practice.

That's what I was thinking but it still sucks...

If you can lovingly try to reason with them before they get to this point, then that certainly can be virtuous.

I think it's not possible. Really I think this is one of those people who won't change their mind no matter what.


Thanks everyone for your advices.

[narraboth]

Base on definition of 7th root downfall, for this 'revealing secret to immature beings' samaya, there must be someone who a) is not qualified and b) listened to or saw your message and c) generated negative/wrong view on Vajrayana due to your message. Then there is a real breaking.

Actually that's the strict point of view. Some says that you also have to know or believe that the person who get your message is immature. eg. you need to reveal secret on bad purpose.

The second point of view actually makes revealing secret (as a serious breaking of samaya) become less likely to happen.
However, if we choose the first strict view, there won't be many lama able to give vajrayana teaching because the lama will need to have the ability to read students' mind. And I personally believe the first view is a saying to push people more careful about secret. I am not very convinced that there will be a serious samaya breaking when someone has no actual intention to do bad.

For the second view, it really depends on what that person thinks. It's hard to check someone's mind so it's hard to tell.
Even for the first view, we still don't know, because we don't know if anyone generate bad ideas if he or she doesn't express it.

However, I guess there might be a samaya degeneration if one's not careful, even he was not intended to do bad.

I can confess here that I did it once. It was something in a Sakya secret teaching but it's not the main practice part; I didn't think about it when I talked and it just leaked from my mouth. Unfortunately the lady who listened to it correlated that to a male-center thinking or something. It was my bad. But luckily she expressed her doubt immediately, so I had chance to explain to her and confess in my mind immediately. I also confessed this to HE Luding Khen Rinpoche after; he didn't say it's very serious but he said I should chant Vajrasattva.

I think we just need to chant Vajrasattva always because you see, I am talking about some vajrayana teaching in public again, who knows if anyone would generate bad thoughts?

[gnegirl]

Personally, i have enough worries guarding my own samaya to worry about another's. However, as someone else pointed out, you can always dedicate some merit towards them to help them avoid some of the negativity they may be generating.

[narraboth]

You might remember the example: three vows are like three vessel: china, cooper and golden.
Samaya is not that easy to be broken, although it's easily degreded I guess.

Once you know someone is seriously breaking their samaya, and seems not changing their behavior, it would be better to keep distance. Usually it happens when someone has huge problem with his guru or vajra brothers.

Even you are not going to contact him, do keep your compassion on him, otherwise you might violent another samaya!

and yes, I worry more about my own samaya... it's really not perfect!

[gnegirl]

Which is why we have things like the 4 powers and 100-syllable mantras

If we did not need to make the changes that taking the vows empowers, then there would be no need for vows, guarding them, and if one is like myself, repairing them...constantly.

[Pero]

Base on definition of 7th root downfall, for this 'revealing secret to immature beings' samaya, there must be someone who a) is not qualified and b) listened to or saw your message and c) generated negative/wrong view on Vajrayana due to your message. Then there is a real breaking.

Thanks Narraboth, you made me look into it more. I think the first two are present but I guess it's not possible for me to know whether someone generated a wrong view on Vajrayana because of this. However, Jamgon Kongtrul doesn't say anything about there being a neccessity to generate a wrong view about Vajrayana.

However, if we choose the first strict view, there won't be many lama able to give vajrayana teaching because the lama will need to have the ability to read students' mind.

Maybe you're right but then we are not lamas either... I think that if teachers share with everyone it doesn't neccessarily mean we can do it too. Maybe I'm wrong but I prefer to play it safe for myself.

I am not very convinced that there will be a serious samaya breaking when someone has no actual intention to do bad.

I hope that's true.

However, I guess there might be a samaya degeneration if one's not careful, even he was not intended to do bad.

I think so too.

I can confess here that I did it once. It was something in a Sakya secret teaching but it's not the main practice part; I didn't think about it when I talked and it just leaked from my mouth. Unfortunately the lady who listened to it correlated that to a male-center thinking or something. It was my bad. But luckily she expressed her doubt immediately, so I had chance to explain to her and confess in my mind immediately. I also confessed this to HE Luding Khen Rinpoche after; he didn't say it's very serious but he said I should chant Vajrasattva.

Thanks for sharing. Fortunately it's pretty rare for me to be in a situation where I'd talk about Vajrayana in general (very few even know I'm into it), so it's not likely I'd say something I shouldn't. Well except on this forum hehe.

I think we just need to chant Vajrasattva always because you see, I am talking about some vajrayana teaching in public again, who knows if anyone would generate bad thoughts?

Yes indeed... I often remember during purification to purify anything I might have said that I shouldn't have lol.

[narraboth]

Thanks Narraboth, you made me look into it more. I think the first two are present but I guess it's not possible for me to know whether someone generated a wrong view on Vajrayana because of this. However, Jamgon Kongtrul doesn't say anything about there being a neccessity to generate a wrong view about Vajrayana.

.........
Maybe you're right but then we are not lamas either... I think that if teachers share with everyone it doesn't neccessarily mean we can do it too. Maybe I'm wrong but I prefer to play it safe for myself.

my dear friend,

Dudjom rinpoche explained in his three vows commentary: '... and cause the person lose faith.'
In 4th Dalai lama's three vows commentary: 'when the person understand what you said and generate wrong view.'

I think it's logical because in the root verse: 'reveal secret to not-suitable containers.' People who haven't recieved empowerment can still be suitable containers for something. (Dudjom Rinpoche made a famous claim when asked why he gave empowerment so openly: 'anyone who belongs to mahayana clan is a suitable container (to recieve empowerment); anyone who has heard 'om mani padme hum' mantra belongs to mahayana clan.' that sounds like a bold claim, but it's totally base on what Buddha said.)

The first requirement is actually not about the person you told to, it's about you, you need to check his status. If you believe that he has recieved empowerment etc, then even he generate negative view, you have done your duty. Then the second requirement is about the action. The third requirement is the actual factor, which is: this person is really a not-suitable container.

As you said, it's impossible to know if anyone generate wrong view, but you don't need to know that to break the vow. As long as you reveal secret to people who you know are not qualified and they generate negative thought, the downfall stands. (Even it stands, if you confess within 4 hours, which is 1/6 of a day, it can be recovered. I think only when it passes one day, it turns into a real break. you can check the book.) Since we wouldn't know if someone generate negative thoughts or wrong view, so we'd better to confess everyday.

I think it's not about the difference between us and a lama, a vow is a vow, we all need to follow it (if the lama is not a enlightened being yet). But I don't know how deep the secret your dharma friend revealed. I made an example on giving empowerment, but there are different requirements to people who want to get empowerment and people who want to do dzogchen practice. So maybe you are right.

Still, revealing secret has many disadvantages, even you didn't really ruin others, it can still cause a delay of your practice getting result.

[tempuserus]

reading the rules in vinaya it is a monks or layperson duty to save another if you dont sve the breaker you yourself breaks multitude of rules which could get you expelled and lose the right in this life to attain a higher bhumi. why is this rule important loving kindness that monk my have done the same to you saved you from yourself from another life. if it to troublesome for you go to your teacher then.

[narraboth]

reading the rules in vinaya it is a monks or layperson duty to save another if you dont sve the breaker you yourself breaks multitude of rules which could get you expelled and lose the right in this life to attain a higher bhumi. why is this rule important loving kindness that monk my have done the same to you saved you from yourself from another life. if it to troublesome for you go to your teacher then.

I think the vinaya you mention here is a mahayana one? Bhumi is a mahayana term.
Anyway, I think Pero talked to him about this, but the guy doesn't accept. Pero can still try to convince him but there's a limit what we can do. Always keeping a good intention is good though.

[tempuserus]

sigh i feel like the individual be talked about, i have no teacher but i open about my spiritual path to a point i wont go into major detail what i experiance because it was meant for me. but if i help others who loose faith whether buddhist or christen. actually i am learning gelug tibetan buddhism. sorry from multiple past lives it goes from theravada to tibetan to mayahana. so their beliefs not memories are active in my mind. so i am very confused about my understanding of buddhism is tibetan is it buddhist etc. but my understanding of the vinayana is that i have not broken any rule i do it for benefit off all beings, i had a teacher then he would catch me so i was a good buddhist but sadly ....but ya it said if you cant do it you havent broken a code as long as you get someone who can. so bare with me about what i know.

[Pero]

Dudjom rinpoche explained in his three vows commentary: '... and cause the person lose faith.'
In 4th Dalai lama's three vows commentary: 'when the person understand what you said and generate wrong view.'

I think it's logical because in the root verse: 'reveal secret to not-suitable containers.' People who haven't recieved empowerment can still be suitable containers for something. (Dudjom Rinpoche made a famous claim when asked why he gave empowerment so openly: 'anyone who belongs to mahayana clan is a suitable container (to recieve empowerment); anyone who has heard 'om mani padme hum' mantra belongs to mahayana clan.' that sounds like a bold claim, but it's totally base on what Buddha said.)
...

That's interesting, I suppose there are slightly different views on this, thanks.

I think it's not about the difference between us and a lama, a vow is a vow, we all need to follow it (if the lama is not a enlightened being yet). But I don't know how deep the secret your dharma friend revealed.

He made available a bunch of restricted material containing tantric and dzogchen practices. For me personally that's very deep... But then I might be a bit uptight about it.

Anyway, I think Pero talked to him about this, but the guy doesn't accept. Pero can still try to convince him but there's a limit what we can do. Always keeping a good intention is good though.

Heh, I couldn't even say anything, it was more like I politely asked a question, he got very angry and blocked communication immediately after that. Because you see from the begining I thought it would be a bad idea o start with samaya breaking haha, so I decided to just politely ask why he's doing it. And much to my surprise that alone already pissed him off. I can't imagine how pissed he'd be if I said he's breaking samaya or something.