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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:55 pm 
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Of course generalizations ... not good. Sorry ... too simplistic

And I have also to admit that without all the tibetan views I have come across I would not be in a position today to appreciate the Buddha's teachings the way I do. So I really have to be grateful for all the tibetan views and teachings.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:00 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
I hate to say it Tmingyur but your failure to even acknowledge sang gye gyis gyu as even a basis of designation for how yogis describe their experience shows that you are stuck at a lower level of understanding perhaps?


Huh? What is "sang gye gyis gyu"?

Kind regards



it is the tibetan word for what has come to be translated as "Buddha Nature".. Sang Gye is the word for Buddha. Sang means purified of the obscurations, and gye implies it being increased, or blossoming with the good qualities. rGyud can mean many things such as..

1) continuum, continuity, succession; 2) string; 3) stream; 4) region, area, location; 5) [family] lineage/ succession/ descent; 6) * [text]; 7) character trait, nature; 8) via through; 9) bank, shore, coast, edge, side; 10) range

so all this came to mean "Buddha Nature" in english.


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:04 pm 
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TMingyur-

I appreciate your concern about "speculative" discussion and elaboration, and I must agree, there is a great danger that those who lack personal direct experience can still assert the existence of that which they have heard at second-hand, alleging they have first-hand direct experience. To be fair, many great Tibetan masters warned about this as well.

But the problem is that you come very close to denying the possibility of direct experience of something which has been pointed to by many great masters. To say that such teachings are expedient may be true in some sense, but don't slam the door on possibility, you know? That, too, would be an error, don't you agree?

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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:59 pm 
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tamdrin wrote:
it is the tibetan word for what has come to be translated as "Buddha Nature".. Sang Gye is the word for Buddha. Sang means purified of the obscurations, and gye implies it being increased, or blossoming with the good qualities. rGyud can mean many things such as..


Actually the Tibetan for "Buddha nature" is de bzhin gshegs pa'i snying po (sanskrit Tathagatagarbha).
Sangs rgyas kyi rgyud would be something like the continuum of the Buddha.

Anyhow, tathagatagarbha in sutra is the seed of enlightenment. Which BTW TMingyur, we can infer that since there were human beings who achieved Buddhahood, other human beings also can achieve Buddhahood, in other words they have the potential for achieving it, the so called "Buddha nature". Now back to my chemical engineering report I go. :rolleye:

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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Pero wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
it is the tibetan word for what has come to be translated as "Buddha Nature".. Sang Gye is the word for Buddha. Sang means purified of the obscurations, and gye implies it being increased, or blossoming with the good qualities. rGyud can mean many things such as..


Actually the Tibetan for "Buddha nature" is de bzhin gshegs pa'i snying po (sanskrit Tathagatagarbha).
Sangs rgyas kyi rgyud would be something like the continuum of the Buddha.

Anyhow, tathagatagarbha in sutra is the seed of enlightenment. Which BTW TMingyur, we can infer that since there were human beings who achieved Buddhahood, other human beings also can achieve Buddhahood, in other words they have the potential for achieving it, the so called "Buddha nature". Now back to my chemical engineering report I go. :rolleye:



I have never heard of any translators calling rsang gyas gyis rgyud the continuum of the Buddha as in the continuity of the Buddha Shakyamuni's mind.. As for de zhin sheg pa nyinpo .. essence of one gone to bliss.. has kind of the flavor of Buddha nature... I think they are different terms for the same thing


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:44 pm 
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They are different terms for the same thing, indeed.

There are a whole host of synonyms, as well as a host of English translations....a whole bunch of words, in fact, for something that some feel isn't anything but an expedient means!
:smile:

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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:38 am 
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tamdrin wrote:
I have never heard of any translators calling rsang gyas gyis rgyud the continuum of the Buddha as in the continuity of the Buddha Shakyamuni's mind.. As for de zhin sheg pa nyinpo .. essence of one gone to bliss.. has kind of the flavor of Buddha nature... I think they are different terms for the same thing


I guess that's possible.
Not sure how he got it (for me it seems more like what you said) but for de bzhin shegs pa'i snying po Tony Duff says that it means "The birthplace of the thus-gone-ones". Buddha nature is actually properly sangs rgyas kyi rang bzhin.

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Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:53 am 
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Every now and then, we come across those that confuse labels/names/conceptions etc with the basis/bases for those labels/names/conceptions.

Unless we are all telepath or fully enlightened beings or unless we choose not to communicate, labels/names/conceptions will always be required. Without the finger to point to the moon, the moon cannot be known.


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:59 am 
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Pero wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
I have never heard of any translators calling rsang gyas gyis rgyud the continuum of the Buddha as in the continuity of the Buddha Shakyamuni's mind.. As for de zhin sheg pa nyinpo .. essence of one gone to bliss.. has kind of the flavor of Buddha nature... I think they are different terms for the same thing


I guess that's possible.
Not sure how he got it (for me it seems more like what you said) but for de bzhin shegs pa'i snying po Tony Duff says that it means "The birthplace of the thus-gone-ones". Buddha nature is actually properly sangs rgyas kyi rang bzhin.



Except there is nothing about any "birthplace" in de shin sheg pa nying po. And, I have never heard of sang gye kyi rang zhin. Are you just thinking that would be literally nature of buddha in tibetan?


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:18 am 
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tamdrin wrote:
Except there is nothing about any "birthplace" in de shin sheg pa nying po.


Haha, that's what I thought too! But now I figured out that garbha means womb, so in this case snying po means womb. Duff says that the literal meaning of tathagatagarbha is "the source, like a womb, which allows buddha's to happen".

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And, I have never heard of sang gye kyi rang zhin. Are you just thinking that would be literally nature of buddha in tibetan?

Yes that's what I thought and also Duff says that though it's not a common term, it does appear in Tibetan literature.

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Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:15 am 
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conebeckham wrote:
But the problem is that you come very close to denying the possibility of direct experience of something which has been pointed to by many great masters. To say that such teachings are expedient may be true in some sense, but don't slam the door on possibility, you know? That, too, would be an error, don't you agree?


Actually I am advocating not to care about what one cannot know. But the opposite seems to manifest: People cling to what they cannot know. And this is really the point: If there is just a view, which is mere thought, either you leave it or you cling to it. Because there is no other way to deal with mere thought. In contrast, thought that is related to direct experience does not need that clinging. Why? Because there is certainty without thought. Why? Because there is knowing based on direct experience.

Kind regards


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:36 am 
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Quote:
Or his mindfulness ... is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.


Quote:
Mindfulness ... is established in him to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and continuous mindfulness.


Kind regards


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:49 am 
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TMingyur,

When exploring an unknown terrain, you need a map.
In getting to the state of full enlightenment, one is moving in unknown terrain to a specific destination. Hence the provision of a map (the teachings) by the Buddha.

What you seemed to to advocating is to ignore the map provided by the Buddha.


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:08 am 
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Sherab wrote:
What you seemed to to advocating is to ignore the map provided by the Buddha.


The map provided by the Buddha is the map leading to liberation from dukkha.

Kind regards


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:13 am 
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TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:
What you seemed to to advocating is to ignore the map provided by the Buddha.


The map provided by the Buddha is the map leading to liberation from dukkha.

Kind regards

Then I supposed you are asking people to ignore certain parts of the map.


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:15 am 
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TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:
What you seemed to to advocating is to ignore the map provided by the Buddha.


The map provided by the Buddha is the map leading to liberation from dukkha.

Kind regards


Where our views may differ is: I am recognizing both, the perfect bodhisattva and the perfect Buddha in the Buddha who appears in the sutta pitaka of the pali canon. Just this and there is nothing to be speculated what may be "above that".

Does that deny the "colored" Mahayana sutras? No, but those are just means to raise enthusiasm in those that cannot be content with what just is.

Kind regards


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:21 am 
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Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:
What you seemed to to advocating is to ignore the map provided by the Buddha.


The map provided by the Buddha is the map leading to liberation from dukkha.

Kind regards

Then I supposed you are asking people to ignore certain parts of the map.


There is the noble 8fold path. Nothing must be ignored in this context. But something may be added that does not undermine any of the 8 items ... e.g. bodhicitta.


Kind regards


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:45 am 
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TMingyur wrote:
Where our views may differ is: I am recognizing both, the perfect bodhisattva and the perfect Buddha in the Buddha who appears in the sutta pitaka of the pali canon. Just this and there is nothing to be speculated what may be "above that".

Does that deny the "colored" Mahayana sutras? No, but those are just means to raise enthusiasm in those that cannot be content with what just is.

"those are just means to raise enthusiasm in those that cannot be content with what just is" - When I read the sutras for myself, I find that this to be a misinterpretation of the sutras. I was similarly taught in my earlier years with Tibetan Buddhism, or more specifically, with Gelug teachers.

So, the difference between you and me is that I don't ignore any part of the map. Those part of the map that you are taught to think of as not important and can be ignored in the path to full enlightenment, I take them as providing a more complete picture of the terrain.


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:55 am 
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Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Where our views may differ is: I am recognizing both, the perfect bodhisattva and the perfect Buddha in the Buddha who appears in the sutta pitaka of the pali canon. Just this and there is nothing to be speculated what may be "above that".

Does that deny the "colored" Mahayana sutras? No, but those are just means to raise enthusiasm in those that cannot be content with what just is.

"those are just means to raise enthusiasm in those that cannot be content with what just is" - When I read the sutras for myself, I find that this to be a misinterpretation of the sutras. I was similarly taught in my earlier years with Tibetan Buddhism, or more specifically, with Gelug teachers.

So, the difference between you and me is that I don't ignore any part of the map. Those part of the map that you are taught to think of as not important and can be ignored in the path to full enlightenment, I take them as providing a more complete picture of the terrain.


Well there also may be the difference that I do not consider buddhahood to be the mandatory goal of the path. A bodhisattva actually decides "I will do it, I will free all beings" but he does not try to persuade others to help him.

Finally I really have to emphasize that without the Mahayana teachings, especially the tibetan one, I feel I would never have been able to appreciate the sutta pitaka of pali canon the way I do it today. So my understanding of it may significantly differ from the understanding of a Theravadin or some Thervadins ... it may differ ... I don't know ... however I do experience this only occasionally.

Kind regards


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 Post subject: Re: Potential
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:57 am 
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TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:
What you seemed to to advocating is to ignore the map provided by the Buddha.


The map provided by the Buddha is the map leading to liberation from dukkha.

Kind regards



Yeah so what. Everyone is suffering. No one is liberated from dukkha that is total BS. :)


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