The love/hate relationship with ngondro

[alpha]

In a place like this where everybody seems to be so tame and obstacle free I almost feel out of place writing about my strugle with ngondro and practice in general.

I visited this forum nearly every day for the past year but i rarely write do to my very poor exposure to real experience when it comes to practice and also due to my semi reclusive existence where social contact is kept to a bare minimum.

I started ngondro some 5 years ago .
But that is all i did because soon enough i started hateing it and this hate kept me from continuing all this time.But all this time i felt like i am cornered like there is no other way but to continue practicing.This presure is now unbearable but still i can't get myself to do it.
Its more like a deep resistance coupled with a state of pre-crying within a context of deep emotional pain.

All these years i had more like a voice telling me that i have to continue(it could be the contact i had with my lama in my earlier stages,but i coud be wrong).But i can't really understand what it is.I feel that there is no way out and i am pushed and pushed to the limits of my sanity.....

At this stage is beyond me how people say that they loved doing ngondro.
Its like saying to me that is.. good to kill.
Absurd and shocking.

[Adamantine]

In a place like this where everybody seems to be so tame and obstacle free I almost feel out of place writing about my strugle with ngondro and practice in general.

I visited this forum nearly every day for the past year but i rarely write do to my very poor exposure to real experience when it comes to practice and also due to my semi reclusive existence where social contact is kept to a bare minimum.

I started ngondro some 5 years ago .
But that is all i did because soon enough i started hateing it and this hate kept me from continuing all this time.But all this time i felt like i am cornered like there is no other way but to continue practicing.This presure is now unbearable but still i can't get myself to do it.
Its more like a deep resistance coupled with a state of pre-crying within a context of deep emotional pain.

All these years i had more like a voice telling me that i have to continue(it could be the contact i had with my lama in my earlier stages,but i coud be wrong).But i can't really understand what it is.I feel that there is no way out and i am pushed and pushed to the limits of my sanity.....

At this stage is beyond me how people say that they loved doing ngondro.
Its like saying to me that is.. good to kill.
Absurd and shocking.

It really sounds like you need to discuss this with your Lama. That's what the Lamas are there for. But I think it is common for intense resistance to arise in the course of doing ngondro-- this is a combination of the intense purification that begins to happen in the course of keeping continuity of ngondro practice, as well as the ego's powerful reflexive reaction to something so powerful that threatens it's habitual existence. I don't think there is anything wrong with you, but you need to keep checking your motivation: is compassion, bodhicitta, there? Keep the paramita's in mind, I think this will help.

[Dhondrub]

Dear Alpha,
Very good advice from Adam.
I think I know what you are talking about. it is a very good way to start to acknowledge the resistance one has and the whole, intensity and claustrophobia of the situation. Its not like it is your fault that you have resistances toward ngondro, thats the whole point of Ngondro as far as I get it to push you out of your samsaric comfort zone into the bigger world of the Guru and the lineage. This doesnt have to be particulary blissful and nice but rather tends to be somewhat cutting. In the end its an growing up process.
Jetsun Khandro Rinpoche taught some time ago that it is the sole point of Ngondro to step over ones barriers and to practice until a point that is slightly uncomfortable to our habits. I am not trying to promote some form of masochism here, this is just my experience with ngondro and what i made out of what my teachers taught me.
What also is a point often stressed is not to put up to high expactations: so better smaller sessions with less repetitions every day, than one big session doing 700 prostrations, totally burning out at the weekend. its no shame to begin with just 50 prostrations each day and to do that for many years. So one has to be realistic about oneself.
I also think it is good to read different materials on Ngondro again and again to get feel some inspirations. And of course first and foremost ask your Lama.

All the very best

Tashi

http://www.pundarika.org/teachings_preliminary.html
and here you can request Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoches excellent Ngöndro manual https://app.etapestry.com/hosted/Khyent ... eForm.html

[Luke]

Hi Alpha,

Just because some of us don't have obstacles to our Buddhist practices, it doesn't mean that our lives are totally blissful and obstacle-free. I teach high school students and I encounter a variety of obstacles every few days. Lol.

How is your relationship with your lama? Do you feel great devotion to him/her? Do you feel joyful when you're around him/her or when you just think of him/her? Or was your lama just a lama that was convenient for you to meet?

I think everything comes down to your relationship with your lama. If you don't feel much devotion to him/her, then perhaps you should be learning from a different one.

I feel like I dodged a huge bullet when I encountered obstacles which made it impossible for me to receive Ngondro instructions from my previous lama. I later realized that I didn't feel enough devotion towards him and that the relationship between he and I just wasn't right. I am thankful that I was able to receive Ngondro instructions from a different lama who I feel very strongly about.

...Or maybe you could take the Zen approach and ask yourself, "Who is this person who hates this Ngondro?" Although I'm getting way out of my depth here because I'm not qualified to talk about Zen...

[alpha]

thank you everyone for the advice given

So far each one of you asked me about my lama(Teacher).
I don't have a teacher.
I don't feel conection to any particular teacher and i don't think that there is out there a teacher for me.And thats not because i cannot be educated or trained but because i literally think that i do not feel any conection to any teacher alive or dead since i have been searching for him or her for many years,through prayers ,active searches, travels....etc.

It is very possible that i only came to know buddhism in this present life therefore not having any established conection from previous lifes.

[Dhondrub]

In my opinion then there is no need to practise Ngöndro. Ngöndro has to be transmitted by a Guru and is a way to receive the blessing of the lineage.

There are many beautiful practises you can do without a Lama anyway.

All the best

Tashi

[Blue Garuda]

Ngondro is not something to be attained or completed, in my personal experience.

There is a great deal of struggle and disappointment, bliss and wisdom.

But the least satisfying and beneficial aspect is to regard those practices as 'finished', as if a contest was won.

To me, after reflection, it was more about opening a door, rather than closing one.

[tamdrin]

thank you everyone for the advice given

So far each one of you asked me about my lama(Teacher).
I don't have a teacher.
I don't feel conection to any particular teacher and i don't think that there is out there a teacher for me.And thats not because i cannot be educated or trained but because i literally think that i do not feel any conection to any teacher alive or dead since i have been searching for him or her for many years,through prayers ,active searches, travels....etc.

It is very possible that i only came to know buddhism in this present life therefore not having any established conection from previous lifes.

It is very ambitious of you to have started Ngondro without a teacher! I think that this shows you have a strong connection to Tibetan/Vajrayana Buddhism from past lives (in contrast to what you say). However, doing Ngondro without having had the o.k. of your Guru could very well be the reason you are experiencing such obstacles. If I were you, I would pray to meet my Root Guru and then patiently see what comes of it.
Sincerely..

[heart]

thank you everyone for the advice given

So far each one of you asked me about my lama(Teacher).
I don't have a teacher.
I don't feel conection to any particular teacher and i don't think that there is out there a teacher for me.And thats not because i cannot be educated or trained but because i literally think that i do not feel any conection to any teacher alive or dead since i have been searching for him or her for many years,through prayers ,active searches, travels....etc.

It is very possible that i only came to know buddhism in this present life therefore not having any established conection from previous lifes.

Just one advice, you have to talk about your problems with the teachers you are considering as a Guru. It is the only way to find a Guru. Close encounter so to say. It is not unheard of that you feel sick of Ngondro and don't know who your Guru is. This is often caused by people following their friends at a Dharma Center rather than a teacher. Nothing strange with that but it seems like it is high time to start talking to the teachers you have the possibility to talk to.

/magnus

[ground]

So far each one of you asked me about my lama(Teacher).
I don't have a teacher.
I don't feel conection to any particular teacher and i don't think that there is out there a teacher for me....
It is very possible that i only came to know buddhism in this present life therefore not having any established conection from previous lifes.

Then just drop this "ngondro" fantasy and look for other practices and/or other traditions if you are interested in buddhism at all.

Kind regards

[Adamantine]

So far each one of you asked me about my lama(Teacher).
I don't have a teacher.
I don't feel conection to any particular teacher and i don't think that there is out there a teacher for me.And thats not because i cannot be educated or trained but because i literally think that i do not feel any conection to any teacher alive or dead since i have been searching for him or her for many years,through prayers ,active searches, travels....etc.
.

you may not have met your teacher yet, or maybe you have and don't yet know it. but it's always possible you haven't been looking in the right ways, or in the right places, or with the correct motivation. would you mind sharing with us some of the teachers you have been able to meet with? which ngondro have you been practicing? did you receive the oral transmission from anybody for it?

[alpha]

I was given all the instructions one needs but the one i have received the ngondro from i do not consider him being my teacher.
I have received ngondro in the context of a mahamudra course over a few years period .
The teacher in question is someone who become very famous in a very short period of time and it is literally imposible to see or talk to him.If he was available i would have made the efforts to go and meet him .But he was sheduled to visit europe in two consecutive years but he cancelled them due to not having enough time.He goes to U.S and other parts of the word but somehow europe wasnt that lucky...The lamas i have met with in the past were Thrangu rinpoche,Ringu Tulku,Akong rinpoche,Mingyur rinpoche,Lama Yeshe and some bon teachers Geshe Gelek,Tenpa Yungdrung rinpoche,Lama Khemsar...From Lama khemsar i have received the Bon Dzogchen Ngondro from Aa-trid Kaloong Gyatso and from the others two the entire Gyalwa Chagtri ,Tummo and Kunzang Nyingtig.

[palchi]

I think I was on the same Mahamudra course as you. If you have a chance to get to Samye Ling I would suggest that you discuss your concerns with either Akong Rinpoche or Lama Yeshe Rinpoche. Both are very approachable and I find them very helpful.

[heart]

I was given all the instructions one needs but the one i have received the ngondro from i do not consider him being my teacher.
I have received ngondro in the context of a mahamudra course over a few years period .
The teacher in question is someone who become very famous in a very short period of time and it is literally imposible to see or talk to him.If he was available i would have made the efforts to go and meet him .But he was sheduled to visit europe in two consecutive years but he cancelled them due to not having enough time.He goes to U.S and other parts of the word but somehow europe wasnt that lucky...The lamas i have met with in the past were Thrangu rinpoche,Ringu Tulku,Akong rinpoche,Mingyur rinpoche,Lama Yeshe and some bon teachers Geshe Gelek,Tenpa Yungdrung rinpoche,Lama Khemsar...From Lama khemsar i have received the Bon Dzogchen Ngondro from Aa-trid Kaloong Gyatso and from the others two the entire Gyalwa Chagtri ,Tummo and Kunzang Nyingtig.

It is a mistake to don't consider the teacher who gave you the Ngondro instructions and transmission as your teacher. You are talking about a root Guru, that is an other thing. Root Guru isn't something you can choose and control even if it sounds like that listening to other practitioners. If you really want to know about the meaning of all the practice you do you go ask, heartfelt, about this to the teacher you think might now this, busy or not busy. The more honest you are about yourself the easier it is to find a root Guru.

/magnus

[narraboth]

I was given all the instructions one needs but the one i have received the ngondro from i do not consider him being my teacher.
I have received ngondro in the context of a mahamudra course over a few years period .
The teacher in question is someone who become very famous in a very short period of time and it is literally imposible to see or talk to him.If he was available i would have made the efforts to go and meet him .But he was sheduled to visit europe in two consecutive years but he cancelled them due to not having enough time.He goes to U.S and other parts of the word but somehow europe wasnt that lucky...The lamas i have met with in the past were Thrangu rinpoche,Ringu Tulku,Akong rinpoche,Mingyur rinpoche,Lama Yeshe and some bon teachers Geshe Gelek,Tenpa Yungdrung rinpoche,Lama Khemsar...From Lama khemsar i have received the Bon Dzogchen Ngondro from Aa-trid Kaloong Gyatso and from the others two the entire Gyalwa Chagtri ,Tummo and Kunzang Nyingtig.

Anyone who teach you even one line of dharma is your teacher, Buddha said if you don't consider he or she as your teacher who gave you a big favor, you accumulate huge negative karma, not to mention those who gave you Vajrayana empowerment/ transmission/ instruction. You didn't just 'meet' them, you became their student if they taught you dharma.

So it's not that you don't have a teacher, it's even not that you don't have a special linked teacher: when you received their teaching and empowerments, you already had the link. It's impossible to practice ngondro and thinking 'I don't have a teacher.' If you don't take who gave you empowerment as precious teacher, you won't get blessing from doing ngondro.

I personally suggest you rethink all lamas you have met, choose one you have the most faith, pray to him, try to meet him. (I think Ringu Tulku is coming to the UK next month, not sure if he will also go to europe, should happen i guess) If you really couldn't generate any teacher-student feeling to anyone, maybe you can do other system of Buddhism first.

[Pero]

In a place like this where everybody seems to be so tame and obstacle free I almost feel out of place writing about my strugle with ngondro and practice in general.

Hehe, I'm pretty sure we all have some obstacles, we just might not talk about them so much.

But that is all i did because soon enough i started hateing it and this hate kept me from continuing all this time.

Why do you hate Ngondro?

All these years i had more like a voice telling me that i have to continue(it could be the contact i had with my lama in my earlier stages,but i coud be wrong).But i can't really understand what it is.I feel that there is no way out and i am pushed and pushed to the limits of my sanity.....

Just relax, no one is forcing you to do it, right? If you don't want to do it then don't. It's not like "you have to do ngondro or else!"
Unless you've made some kind of vow or something like that, that's a different story.

I was given all the instructions one needs but the one i have received the ngondro from i do not consider him being my teacher.
I have received ngondro in the context of a mahamudra course over a few years period .

Like others have said, though perhaps he is not your root teacher, he is still one of your teachers. I guess you're talking about Mingyur Rinpoche since he was giving the Mahamudra course over a few year span. I received the instructions for the first part of ngondro from him and if we were supposed to attend the next level we were supposed to finish it. I didn't for various reasons and never felt pressured to do it.

I think Ringu Tulku is coming to the UK next month, not sure if he will also go to europe, should happen i guess

I heard he's supposed to come to Slovenia in May.

[tamdrin]

Anyone who teach you even one line of dharma is your teacher, Buddha said if you don't consider he or she as your teacher who gave you a big favor, you accumulate huge negative karma, not to mention those who gave you Vajrayana empowerment/ transmission/ instruction. You didn't just 'meet' them, you became their student if they taught you dharma.

.

Where did Buddha say this? If this is so then how could one potentially check out a teacher (to see if one wants to make a connection or not) without hearing some of their teaching. If this is true what you are saying than every person's book you read automatically becomes your teacher. I don't buy it.

[Zenda]

In a place like this where everybody seems to be so tame and obstacle free I almost feel out of place writing about my strugle with ngondro and practice in general.

I visited this forum nearly every day for the past year but i rarely write do to my very poor exposure to real experience when it comes to practice and also due to my semi reclusive existence where social contact is kept to a bare minimum.

I started ngondro some 5 years ago .
But that is all i did because soon enough i started hateing it and this hate kept me from continuing all this time.But all this time i felt like i am cornered like there is no other way but to continue practicing.This presure is now unbearable but still i can't get myself to do it.
Its more like a deep resistance coupled with a state of pre-crying within a context of deep emotional pain.

All these years i had more like a voice telling me that i have to continue(it could be the contact i had with my lama in my earlier stages,but i coud be wrong).But i can't really understand what it is.I feel that there is no way out and i am pushed and pushed to the limits of my sanity.....

At this stage is beyond me how people say that they loved doing ngondro.
Its like saying to me that is.. good to kill.
Absurd and shocking.

Hi alpha.

I can relate to your post. Ngondro has been difficult for me too. My experience (which is quite limited) is that these practices can really push my buttons and sometimes I just don't want to do it! What helped me commit to the practice was to take a vow in front a teacher that I would do them. I know that it may seem strange, but in a way it has released some of the pressure... I said I would do it and I have to, whether I like it or not. For whatever reason, that helped me relax a bit with the practice. I think too that some of the pressure was caused by my tendency to to be too hard on myself and strive too much...

The other thing I found helpful is something a friend told me... he suggested that I take whatever comes up as the path and to simply watch whatever emotions and thoughts that I have about the practice. They are just emotions and thoughts and are no better or worse than the ones I find pleasant or the ones I ignore. In fact, I have started to think that maybe these strong negative thoughts and emotions are even more helpful in a sense because they are so sharp and bold. Even obstacles don't last forever. I remember one teacher saying that obstacles can be an indication that the practice is working because the ego is rising up to defend itself.

I hope you'll be able to get back on the ngondro horse if that is what you want to do! Take very good care!

[Pema Rigdzin]

Anyone who teach you even one line of dharma is your teacher, Buddha said if you don't consider he or she as your teacher who gave you a big favor, you accumulate huge negative karma, not to mention those who gave you Vajrayana empowerment/ transmission/ instruction. You didn't just 'meet' them, you became their student if they taught you dharma.

.

Where did Buddha say this? If this is so then how could one potentially check out a teacher (to see if one wants to make a connection or not) without hearing some of their teaching. If this is true what you are saying than every person's book you read automatically becomes your teacher. I don't buy it.

Tamdrin, it doesn't mean if someone teaches you one line of Dharma that they become your root lama and you enter into some kind of obligation to form a guru/disciple relationship with them. It's much more straight forward: if they taught you something, by definition, they have been a teacher to you; and if they taught you Dharma, then they taught you something particularly priceless. In Buddhism, there are various levels of teachers, from the more common spiritual friend at the sutra level, all the way to the extraordinary root guru in tantra. So what is meant by what Narraboth was quoting is simply that one is to maintain respect and gratitude toward any individual that teaches one the Buddha's Dharma. And honestly, one should feel respect and gratitude toward one who teaches one ANYTHING, such as how to walk, talk, feed and care for oneself, how to read, and so on.

[Adamantine]

Anyone who teach you even one line of dharma is your teacher, Buddha said if you don't consider he or she as your teacher who gave you a big favor, you accumulate huge negative karma, not to mention those who gave you Vajrayana empowerment/ transmission/ instruction. You didn't just 'meet' them, you became their student if they taught you dharma.

.

Where did Buddha say this? If this is so then how could one potentially check out a teacher (to see if one wants to make a connection or not) without hearing some of their teaching. If this is true what you are saying than every person's book you read automatically becomes your teacher. I don't buy it.

It's about making yourself a proper vessel to listen to Dharma teachings. If you have examined the teacher enough to know they have been well taught themselves in the precious Dharma, then to receive the teaching properly one needs to empty oneself of one's own feeling that one already knows, and then show the teacher great respect. Stay attentive. Once one surrenders in this way during a teaching or transmission, you will see a remarkable difference in what you can receive. Just because you show great respect and reverence to an authentic teacher of Dharma does not make them your Guru in the Tantric sense. You need wang lung and tri for that: Empowerment, Oral Transmission, and Pith instructions. Once you receive these three transmissions at a Tantric level from someone, that person is your Guru, or one of them. Until then, it is still important to feel great respect for any Dharma teachers you may visit. We take refuge in the Sangha, the community of those on the path who have cultivated more merit and wisdom than we have.. especially Bodhisattvas if we can recognize them- so we still prostrate to them even if they are not our own Gurus. Until we take someone as a Guru, we can and should examine them closely to see if they have the proper qualities, and check if their teachings are sound and in line with the sutras and tantras. So I think Narraboth is urging you to keep an open mind about these teachers, and still try to cultivate reverence for them, even if they might not turn out to be your Vajra Guru. However, you have already received oral transmission for Ngondro practice, and pith instruction probably on the Ngondro from one teacher, so keep in mind that you already have a tantric level of relationship with them. It would be good if you can try to cultivate more and more pure vision for them as much as you can. Sometimes waiting to feel this huge explosion of something that tells you "this is my Guru!" is a type of fantasy people grasp to. And some people that follow this feeling might be simply following someone really charismatic over the edge of a cliff. . . In reality, and in my experience, our obscuration may prevent us from noticing a profound connection when it is there- our ego which is bent on survival might cloud our perception-- but the more and more one makes efforts to practice, and spends time with the teacher and keeps a dialogue going, then one has more time to notice special qualities if they are there-- and perhaps at
a certain point it may hit you like a ton of bricks-- that this person is not ordinary, is suffused with wisdom, compassion and kindness and you might find tears flowing down your cheeks in gratitude.