Magician's illusion

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Magician's illusion

Postby goodie » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:09 am

Je Tsongkhapa says in his Medium length Lam Rim:

Illusions emanated (or conjured) by a magician are from the start empty of being horses and elephants, but appearances as horsers and elephants undeniably dawn; and likewise you should know that phenomena, persons and so forth, also are from the start empty of inherent existence - that is, of being established by way of their own nature right with the object - but it is undeniable that they appear as if established that way.

This example with magicians making a stick or some other object appear as horse or elephant is used widely in buddhist literature. But this example is quite foreign to a western way of thinking, because who has ever seen someone do such magic? So if someone here has witnessed such a thing, please write about, as I'm curious how this happens :)
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby muni » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:42 pm

Apprehended "knowing" and so fictituous creations, optical illusion of mind only. Mind does it all the time, taking all mistaken identities for "there really so appaering".

To relax intellectual activity is kindly told. All appaerances-emptiness are liberated by themselves, no apprehended analyse does.
Last edited by muni on Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby ground » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:52 pm

muni wrote:Apprehended "knowing" and so fictituous creations, optical illusion of mind only.

To relax intellectual activity is kindly told. All appaerances-emptiness are liberated by themselves, no apprehended analyse does.


Which of course is definitely not what Tsongkhapa teaches here.

Kind regards
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby muni » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:57 pm

There are differences in unborn nature and knowing the illusions.
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby ground » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:09 pm

There are a great many concepts and metaphors which those who lack particular understanding for particular ones tend to take at face value and argue about alleged "differences".

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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby muni » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:12 pm

Appearance as inevitably relative

And shunyata as free of assertions –

When these are understood as separate,

Buddha's intent remains unknown.

When they are simultaneous and not altered,

The mere sight of relativity

*Becomes sure knowledge free of objective habits. . . .*

While appearance eradicates absolutism,

Shunyata eliminates nihilism,

And you know shunyata manifest as causality,

And are freed from extremes in views. :namaste:
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby ground » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:31 pm

Whoever, seeing the cause and effect of all phenomena
Of cyclic existence and nirvana as infallible,
Thoroughly destroys the mode of misapprehension
of these objects [as inherently existent]
Has entered on a path pleasing the Buddhas.

As long as the two, realization of appearances -
the infallibility of dependent arising -
And realization of emptiness - the non-assertion [of inherent existence],
Seem to be separate, there is still no realization
Of the thought of Shakyamuni Buddha.

When [the two realizations exist] simultaneously
without alternation
And when, from only seeing dependent-arising as infallible,
Definite knowledge destroys the mode of apprehension
[of the conception of inherent existence],
Then the analysis of the view [of emptiness] is complete.

Further, the extreme of [inherent] existence is excluded
[by knowledge of the nature] of appearances [existing only as nominal designations],
And the extreme of total non-existence is excluded [by knowledge of the nature] of emptiness [as the absence of inherent existence].
If within emptiness the way of appearances of cause and effect is known,
You will not be captivated by extreme views.


Lama Tsongkhapa (extracted from "The Three Principle Aspects of the Path", Geshe Sopa, Jeffrey Hopkins in "Cutting Through Appearances")
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby Blue Garuda » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:17 pm

goodie wrote:Je Tsongkhapa says in his Medium length Lam Rim:

Illusions emanated (or conjured) by a magician are from the start empty of being horses and elephants, but appearances as horsers and elephants undeniably dawn; and likewise you should know that phenomena, persons and so forth, also are from the start empty of inherent existence - that is, of being established by way of their own nature right with the object - but it is undeniable that they appear as if established that way.

This example with magicians making a stick or some other object appear as horse or elephant is used widely in buddhist literature. But this example is quite foreign to a western way of thinking, because who has ever seen someone do such magic? So if someone here has witnessed such a thing, please write about, as I'm curious how this happens :)


Doesn't seem any different from the many modern illusionists or even hypnotists. The point is that no magician can create these images - it is our mind which does so at his suggestion. Without our mind, 'appearances' cannot occur, hence the extension from that example to teach that all phenomena we experience are appearances to mind.

Of course, we don't need a magician - it's already pretty easy for use to mistake a stick for a snake.
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby muni » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:00 pm

TMingyur wrote:There are a great many concepts and metaphors which those who lack particular understanding for particular ones tend to take at face value and argue about alleged "differences".

Kind regards


This is Tibetan. I use some words, nothing special. Of course i can say: by these words I get a light how I understand magicians' illusions and share in order to inspire others for liberation of all, but no no, I have to grasp to rules and traditions, may not do, and use Tsongkhapa words only. Forget it, my dear.
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby kirtu » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:01 am

goodie wrote:This example with magicians making a stick or some other object appear as horse or elephant is used widely in buddhist literature. But this example is quite foreign to a western way of thinking, because who has ever seen someone do such magic? So if someone here has witnessed such a thing, please write about, as I'm curious how this happens :)


I mentioned this to my Sakya lama one day nearly word or word. He told us that such magicians still exist in India and he had in fact see this kind of magic which seems to be a full magic show of some kind. He also said specifically that the magic could be somewhat gory (in appearance, not for real).

Apparently this is a different kind of illusion than we have in the West where it is explicitly an illusion. So maybe more like the magic show in the beginning of the movie "Lord of Illusions" (which is problematic because in that movie the magic was real).

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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby muni » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:27 am

The limited conceptual mind believes and not believes in ideas. Could be, this is not the same as the magic of empty nature.
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby goodie » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:30 pm

kirtu wrote:I mentioned this to my Sakya lama one day nearly word or word. He told us that such magicians still exist in India and he had in fact see this kind of magic which seems to be a full magic show of some kind. He also said specifically that the magic could be somewhat gory (in appearance, not for real).
I also asked a geshe from Sera monastery about this once, and he also confirmed that it is possible to still see this in India, and that from time to time magicians would come to the monastery or villages to perform such shows. He said for example they can make a big object (such as human) go through tiny holes etc. Would be interesting to see such thing in person though.
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby ngodrup » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:23 pm

I think the kind of "Magic" that Je Tsongkapa is talking about
is something we'd call "group hypnosis." By the "spell" of the
magician, the audience sees a hallucination. People who
come into the show late were not induced to hallucinate,
therefore they don't. That's the sense I've gotten when
asking Geshes who are fluent in English.
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Re: Magician's illusion

Postby Paul » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:32 pm

ngodrup wrote:I think the kind of "Magic" that Je Tsongkapa is talking about
is something we'd call "group hypnosis." By the "spell" of the
magician, the audience sees a hallucination. People who
come into the show late were not induced to hallucinate,
therefore they don't. That's the sense I've gotten when
asking Geshes who are fluent in English.


Sounds like Derren Brown.

The best thing about him is that there are numerous tricks of his that appear to be done in some bizarre, long winded way involving hypnosis etc. but are actually very fancy versions of simple card tricks. So even his illusions are illusions. :sage:
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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