How to visualize rotating mantra?

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How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Inge » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:30 pm

For self-visualization, in the practice text it says that on a sun disc is standing the seed syllable surrounded by the other mantra syllables. And while reciting, the mantra is to rotate counterclockwise. Do you think that the mantra syllables are to be arranged counterclockwise also? This is not specified in the text, and was not specified during explanations.

Also, for front visualization, how should the seed syllable be visualized from my point of view, normal way, or mirrored? And likewise the other mantra syllables, viewed normal way, or mirrored?

Am I to visualize the mantra as if seen from the point of my eyes, as if actually seen in front of me? If not, how?

Do you know of any good introductory explanations to such and similar issues?

Thanks.
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:51 pm

Which practice are you referrring to? Vajrayogini?

Have you received the empowerment?
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:56 pm

You should ask the Lama--or, if you can read Tibetan, check the Tri text itself....often-times, these details are given in the Tri texts for the specific practices...

But, as a general rule, if a mantra rotates counterclockwise, thy syllables will be arranged clockwise. And vice versa.
Also, as a general rule, Mother Tantra practices have the syllables facing inward, toward the seed syllable. Father Tantra mantras face outward, away from the seed syllable.

Normally (but not always) the seed syllable is facing front--in other words, someone standing in front of you would be able to view and read it correctly.

For front visualization, imagine you're viewing the deity and the mantra syllables and seed syllable arranged just as in your self-visualization (usually--).
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:02 pm

Ah, I've read across to your other posts.

Yes, I would seek an answer form the guru who gave the empowerment, or one of his senior disciples, by email - I understand he is not visiting your area very soon.

It seems to me that if these questions have not already been aswered, you would be better to regard those empowerments as blessings, wait until you can get answers from your guru, and not try to find your own way through the practices.

Mantra recitation may be more suitable in the meantime, as it seems you are perhaps trying to perform (HYT?) practices as a relative beginner without support.
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Inge » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:13 pm

Yeshe wrote:Ah, I've read across to your other posts.

Yes, I would seek an answer form the guru who gave the empowerment, or one of his senior disciples, by email - I understand he is not visiting your area very soon.

It seems to me that if these questions have not already been aswered, you would be better to regard those empowerments as blessings, wait until you can get answers from your guru, and not try to find your own way through the practices.

Mantra recitation may be more suitable in the meantime, as it seems you are perhaps trying to perform HYT practices as a relative beginner without support.


I am unsure if it is appropriate to specify which practice I do. I see no reason as to why it should be, but with vajrayana practice there are so many strange things that I do not understand. It is not HYT practice, at least I don't think so, that I do. The empowerment was given with commitment to do daily practice, which I have done, but I havn't really tried to do the visualization properly until now. It was given both empowerment, reading transmission and practice intstructions, but the practice intstructions was very brief and did not get into such specifics.

To contact the guru who gave the empowerment seems reasonable, but I have tried that once before without getting any answer.
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Inge » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:21 pm

conebeckham wrote:You should ask the Lama--or, if you can read Tibetan, check the Tri text itself....often-times, these details are given in the Tri texts for the specific practices...

But, as a general rule, if a mantra rotates counterclockwise, thy syllables will be arranged clockwise. And vice versa.
Also, as a general rule, Mother Tantra practices have the syllables facing inward, toward the seed syllable. Father Tantra mantras face outward, away from the seed syllable.

Normally (but not always) the seed syllable is facing front--in other words, someone standing in front of you would be able to view and read it correctly.

For front visualization, imagine you're viewing the deity and the mantra syllables and seed syllable arranged just as in your self-visualization (usually--).


Thank you for the information conebeckham. As I don't know if it belongs to Mother Tantra of Father Tantra, I will have to contact the Lama or somone closer to him to ask about this. Do you think that until I know exactly how to arrange the mantra it would be proper to just visualize the deity without the mantras?

The text is translated to english, but it does not say anything more about this than what I wrote in my initial post.
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:29 pm

Inge wrote:
Yeshe wrote:Ah, I've read across to your other posts.

Yes, I would seek an answer form the guru who gave the empowerment, or one of his senior disciples, by email - I understand he is not visiting your area very soon.

It seems to me that if these questions have not already been aswered, you would be better to regard those empowerments as blessings, wait until you can get answers from your guru, and not try to find your own way through the practices.

Mantra recitation may be more suitable in the meantime, as it seems you are perhaps trying to perform HYT practices as a relative beginner without support.


I am unsure if it is appropriate to specify which practice I do. I see no reason as to why it should be, but with vajrayana practice there are so many strange things that I do not understand. It is not HYT practice, at least I don't think so, that I do. The empowerment was given with commitment to do daily practice, which I have done, but I havn't really tried to do the visualization properly until now. It was given both empowerment, reading transmission and practice intstructions, but the practice intstructions was very brief and did not get into such specifics.

To contact the guru who gave the empowerment seems reasonable, but I have tried that once before without getting any answer.



Sorry, are we talking about the same empowerments you discussed in this post? :

''Lately I have been overcome by severe doubts causing me to fear that I have prematurely entered the Vajrayana.

I have attended a Green Tara empowerment and a Kalachakra empowerment. Both were given without reading transmission and oral explanations.

The Kalachakra empowerment were given with the three sets of vows, but without practice commitments.

I have not been instructed properly in the specifics of the three sets of vows, and based on what I have read about these vows I suppose that I am constantly damaging them. I have not been properly instructid in how to keep the vows and how to purify broken and damaged vows.''


I know very little of Kalachakra but without reading transmission, explanation or practice commitments are you sure it was the guru's intention for you to engage in the practices rather than regard the empowerments as blessings?. If you have taken Tantric vows but have nothing to practice then I'm confused, but as I say, I know little about Kalachakra. If it is Kalachakra we're discussing then in one post you say there was no practice commitment and in the other you say there is - did that practice relate to the Tara empowerment ?

You may keep confidentiality by using a PM to contact others here who share the same TB school . ;)
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:34 pm

You can PM me, if you'd like....as well. There are many different ways of visualizing mantra--it's going to be specific to the sadhana and explanatory text, I think. But if you're talking about a certain protector practice, I'd bet it's a counterclockwise rotation, with syllables arranged clockwise.....but best to find a Drikungpa to ask!
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:40 pm

conebeckham wrote:You can PM me, if you'd like....as well. There are many different ways of visualizing mantra--it's going to be specific to the sadhana and explanatory text, I think. But if you're talking about a certain protector practice, I'd bet it's a counterclockwise rotation, with syllables arranged clockwise.....but best to find a Drikungpa to ask!


That's kind. :)

I would be of little use if it is Kalachakra. That's to say, even less useful than usual! LOL :)
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:52 pm

You and me both.....though if I live long enough, I hope to engage in the DuKhor practice eventually.....
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Inge » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:34 pm

Yeshe wrote:Sorry, are we talking about the same empowerments you discussed in this post? :

''Lately I have been overcome by severe doubts causing me to fear that I have prematurely entered the Vajrayana.

I have attended a Green Tara empowerment and a Kalachakra empowerment. Both were given without reading transmission and oral explanations.

The Kalachakra empowerment were given with the three sets of vows, but without practice commitments.

I have not been instructed properly in the specifics of the three sets of vows, and based on what I have read about these vows I suppose that I am constantly damaging them. I have not been properly instructid in how to keep the vows and how to purify broken and damaged vows.''


I know very little of Kalachakra but without reading transmission, explanation or practice commitments are you sure it was the guru's intention for you to engage in the practices rather than regard the empowerments as blessings?. If you have taken Tantric vows but have nothing to practice then I'm confused, but as I say, I know little about Kalachakra. If it is Kalachakra we're discussing then in one post you say there was no practice commitment and in the other you say there is - did that practice relate to the Tara empowerment ?

You may keep confidentiality by using a PM to contact others here who share the same TB school . ;)

Thanks Yeshe, but how am I to know which users who belong to which school? Which school do you belong to?

No, I'm not refering to Kalachakra and Tara empowerments.

As to the Kalachakra empowerment, it was given with pratimokhsa, bodhisattva and tantric vows, but without commitment to do meditation/sadhana practice.
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Inge » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:36 pm

conebeckham wrote:You can PM me, if you'd like....as well. There are many different ways of visualizing mantra--it's going to be specific to the sadhana and explanatory text, I think. But if you're talking about a certain protector practice, I'd bet it's a counterclockwise rotation, with syllables arranged clockwise.....but best to find a Drikungpa to ask!

Thanks.

Are there any Drikungpas present that i can PM?
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Pero » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:50 pm

Inge wrote:For self-visualization, in the practice text it says that on a sun disc is standing the seed syllable surrounded by the other mantra syllables. And while reciting, the mantra is to rotate counterclockwise. Do you think that the mantra syllables are to be arranged counterclockwise also? This is not specified in the text, and was not specified during explanations.

Also, for front visualization, how should the seed syllable be visualized from my point of view, normal way, or mirrored? And likewise the other mantra syllables, viewed normal way, or mirrored?


I'm not sure how it is in Sarma schools but in Anuyoga methods I've learned the general explanation is that if the deity is female the mantra rotates counterclockwise and the letters of the mantra are facing in (both opposite for male), that is if you were the seed syllable you'd be able to read the mantra.
Seed syllable also usually faces out. I suppose there could be some exceptions but I think when so, they'd be specified.
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:59 pm

Inge wrote:Thanks Yeshe, but how am I to know which users who belong to which school? Which school do you belong to?

No, I'm not refering to Kalachakra and Tara empowerments.

As to the Kalachakra empowerment, it was given with pratimokhsa, bodhisattva and tantric vows, but without commitment to do meditation/sadhana practice.



Sorry, my bad guidance. Let me try to be a bit more helpful:

Because of the nature of Tantra, many requests on threads end up with : 'ask your guru' as it was felt unsuitable to discuss these things openly.

So we created a section of the forum where you ask the question and anyone with an answer may send you a PM and take it from there. It's called Tantra Talk. If people feel uncomfortable discussing things it may be worth using that part of the forum as well:

viewforum.php?f=90

Also, Ngawang Drolma has been on the staff here for a long time so she may be able to point you in the direction of someone well suited to help.

I'm a Gelugpa and although much is shared across TB, I often have little idea about topics relating to other schools.

Good luck finding the answers. :)
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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby kirtu » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:40 pm

conebeckham wrote:Also, as a general rule, Mother Tantra practices have the syllables facing inward, toward the seed syllable. Father Tantra mantras face outward, away from the seed syllable.


I've never understood what the difference would be - until just this moment - ah it's true that the letters aren't symmetric ...

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Re: How to visualize rotating mantra?

Postby kirtu » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:54 pm

I do have a very knowledgeable Drikung friend but he isn't on here. If you are in the US then the best thing would be to ask the Tibetan Meditation Center in Frederick, MD or Lama Sonam in Boston (BostonDrikung.org).

You could always just arrange the syllables counterclockwise, rotate the syllables and then get confirmation. But the syllables should be visualized if you can visualize them of course.

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