Non duality.

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Re: Non duality.

Postby muni » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:26 am

By Namdrol: "...nondual, but it is not a nonduality" :idea:

clarity! Here is the key of the misunderstanding of the misunderstanding. and shows poor limits of language once more. ism, ity..."a"
Thank you.

With respect without language limits, to teachings and what is meant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CauF1rAHJfU
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Re: Non duality.

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:47 pm

TMingyur wrote:"Non duality" ... "emptiness" ... mere thoughts, ideas ...

I'd suggest "non-attachment" ...


Kind regards



Also a thought.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Non duality.

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:00 pm

muni wrote:By Namdrol: "...nondual, but it is not a nonduality" :idea:

clarity! Here is the key of the misunderstanding of the misunderstanding. and shows poor limits of language once more. ism, ity..."a"
Thank you.

With respect without language limits, to teachings and what is meant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CauF1rAHJfU


DKR's talk can be summarized as follows:

He for whom emptiness is possible,
for him everything is possible.
He for whom emptiness is not possible,
for him nothing is possible.
-- Nagarjuna
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Non duality.

Postby White Lotus » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:51 pm

I know that my words mean nothing here, but nonetheless i will say what i will...
for me samata/shamata was the gateway that lead on to seeing emptiness of self and all objects. it was the gateway? that enabled me to see buddha nature and the completeness of dharmakaya.

shamata is not a view it is a seeing. to all who view shamata as merely a speculative view. they still are blind to shamata.

i agree with the learned doctor, that it is nothing special, however no form of seeing is anything particulary remarkable.

in my own experience i would possibly never have seen buddha nature were it not for shamata acting as a gateway. it marks the time when one begins to understand awareness.

AN Excersise:

observe the computer screen, feel it with your mind. the sensation, the basic sensation it creates and then after a minute or so focus on the mouse... is there any difference. in the Pali, Samata means Sameness. the word non duality is not used. do you feel the sameness of computer screen and mouse? when you do you can apply this awareness excersise to any objects and experience the sameness of awareness. nothing remarkable.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Non duality.

Postby ground » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:55 pm

Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:"Non duality" ... "emptiness" ... mere thoughts, ideas ...

I'd suggest "non-attachment" ...


Kind regards



Also a thought.


Which however has a correlate in direct experience. And I assert that there is no such correlate as to "emptiness" or "non duality".


Kind regards
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Re: Non duality.

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:26 pm

TMingyur wrote:Which however has a correlate in direct experience. And I assert that there is no such correlate as to "emptiness" or "non duality".



So you have never experienced an empty bank account? An empty larder? Because certainly in this instant there is a correlate with direct experience. The old "village is empty of a city, city is empty of a village" trope from the suttas i.e. the Cullasunnata sutta, major and minor.

Phenomena are by necessary of free of duality, since they originate in dependence. That absence of duality also has a correlate in direct experience -- see Kaccaayanagotto Sutta i.e. "Everything exists,' this is one extreme [view]; 'nothing exists,' this is the other extreme. Avoiding both extremes the Tathaagata teaches a doctrine of the middle".

The middle way view is by necessity a non-dual view, avoiding these extremes of dualism. That is also emptiness; emptiness cures the views of existence and non-existence -- that can be correlated in one's personal experience.

Apatheia, on the other hand, vairāga, non-attachment, is not a particularly unique Buddhist principle.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Non duality.

Postby ground » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:31 pm

Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Which however has a correlate in direct experience. And I assert that there is no such correlate as to "emptiness" or "non duality".



So you have never experienced an empty bank account? An empty larder? Because certainly in this instant there is a correlate with direct experience.

Well now you are referring to "emptiness of ..." The bank account empty of positive figures >= 0 can be experienced on the account statement. In the same vein the larder's emptiness of packaged food.

But the emptiness that is the topic here ... what is empty of what in this context?

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Re: Non duality.

Postby ground » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:33 pm

Namdrol wrote:Phenomena are by necessary of free of duality, since they originate in dependence. That absence of duality also has a correlate in direct experience


No because you cannot directly experience duality in the first place.

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Re: Non duality.

Postby ground » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:37 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Phenomena are by necessary of free of duality, since they originate in dependence. That absence of duality also has a correlate in direct experience


No because you cannot directly experience duality in the first place.

Kind regards


Well perhaps you can. For me it is mere thought, mere fabrication. And what is mere thought cannot have a correlate in direct experience.

Kind regards
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Re: Non duality.

Postby ground » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:41 pm

In contrast to this what is called "attachment" does have a correlate in direct experience. Consequently its absence has a correlate too. Therefore "non-attachment" applies, whereas "nonduality" or "emptiness (of what??)" do not apply but are mere fabrications.

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Re: Non duality.

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:48 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Phenomena are by necessary of free of duality, since they originate in dependence. That absence of duality also has a correlate in direct experience


No because you cannot directly experience duality in the first place.

Kind regards



Of course you can -- now it is exists, now it does not. That is the experience of duality being discussed.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Non duality.

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:50 pm

TMingyur wrote:In contrast to this what is called "attachment" does have a correlate in direct experience. Consequently its absence has a correlate too. Therefore "non-attachment" applies, whereas "nonduality" or "emptiness (of what??)" do not apply but are mere fabrications.

Kind regards



It is the same, now attached, now detached; now full, now empty; now exists, now does not exist; these are all dualities.

When the basis for attachment has ceased, also the basis for detachment has ceased: detachment is also trapped in dualism.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Non duality.

Postby ground » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:When the basis for attachment has ceased, also the basis for detachment has ceased: detachment is also trapped in dualism.


It may appear so due to the terms being thought. However non-attachment does not "feel" "trapped" but attachment does.

Kind regards


Edit: "detachment" replaced by "non-attachment" since the intended meaning was a mere exclusion which is better expressed through its negative.
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Re: Non duality.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:51 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:When the basis for attachment has ceased, also the basis for detachment has ceased: detachment is also trapped in dualism.


It may appear so due to the terms being thought. However non-attachment does not "feel" "trapped" but attachment does.



Nevertheless, non-attachment is a more subtle trap.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Non duality.

Postby ground » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:31 am

Well then you continue fostering attachment. It's up to you.

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Re: Non duality.

Postby Dexing » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:38 am

Attachment is the cyclic existence- Saṃsāra.

Non-attachment is the cessation- Nirvāna.

In the Mahāyāna, neither are taken up or abandoned by the Bodhisattva.

:namaste:
nopalabhyate...
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Re: Non duality.

Postby ground » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:43 am

Dexing wrote:In the Mahāyāna, neither are taken up or abandoned by the Bodhisattva.


In the Mahayana the bodhisattva strives for nirvana too. However it is called "non-abiding nirvana" since he is willing to be reborn through aspiration and prayer (but not through karma).


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Re: Non duality.

Postby Dexing » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:46 am

TMingyur wrote:
Dexing wrote:In the Mahāyāna, neither are taken up or abandoned by the Bodhisattva.


In the Mahayana the bodhisattva strives for nirvana too. However it is called "non-abiding nirvana" since he is willing to be reborn through aspiration and prayer (but not through karma).


Kind regards


Of course, and this being removed from the duality of these:

Attachment is the cyclic existence- Saṃsāra.

Non-attachment is the cessation- Nirvāna (with/without remainder).

Is itself proper non-duality of even duality and non-duality.

:namaste:
nopalabhyate...
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Re: Non duality.

Postby ground » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:50 am

I have no issue with duality. There is right and wrong and to know right and wrong is of great benefit.

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Re: Non duality.

Postby Dexing » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:57 am

Duality usually refers to the imagined apprehended and apprehender, which is a delusion that leads to suffering and the causes of suffering.

:namaste:
nopalabhyate...
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