Non duality.

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muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni »

"Yes, emptiness, the absence of the four extremes, is non-dual. But only trivially so".

In no understanding.
Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote:"Yes, emptiness, the absence of the four extremes, is non-dual. But only trivially so".

In no understanding.

Think what you like.
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kirtu
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Re: Non duality.

Post by kirtu »

Namdrol wrote: I am pointing out that there exists a little known criticism of non-dual equipoise i.e. one in which there is no perception of subject and object, in Dzogchen teachings, which, it is asserted can cause one to slip into nirodha-sampatti, and thence, into a annihilationist view.
Okay.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni »

Namdrol wrote:
muni wrote:"Yes, emptiness, the absence of the four extremes, is non-dual. But only trivially so".

In no understanding.

Think what you like.
Listen to the youtube. Then what is for you more important, the welfare of others or rightness? This itself is anexample. Rinpoche says: there is no Buddhism without.

Just look to Tibetan Buddhism, look to Zen, Mahayana, it is included in all these. How can there be the practice of Transcendent Perfections?
A Tibetan doctor has this in his guidance as well to can act purely altruistic what is part of the medicine.
muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni »

kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote: I am pointing out that there exists a little known criticism of non-dual equipoise i.e. one in which there is no perception of subject and object, in Dzogchen teachings, which, it is asserted can cause one to slip into nirodha-sampatti, and thence, into a annihilationist view.
Okay.

Kirt
In no understanding.
Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
muni wrote:"Yes, emptiness, the absence of the four extremes, is non-dual. But only trivially so".

In no understanding.

Think what you like.
Listen to the youtube. Then what is for you more important, the welfare of others or rightness? This itself is anexample. Rinpoche says: there is no Buddhism without.

Just look to Tibetan Buddhism, look to Zen, Mahayana, it is included in all these. How can there be the practice of Transcendent Perfections?
A Tibetan doctor has this in his guidance as well to can act purely altruistic what is part of the medicine.
That emptiness is non-dual (i.e. free from extremes) is a fact. But it is not, for me, at any rate, a very important fact since it is just a bunch of words. Yes, of course as Tibetan doctor, our view is Madhyamaka. My view is Madhyamaka. Not because I am attached to the middle way as a religion, but because this is just how things are.

Therefore, I think "emptiness as non-duality" is pretty trivial. Like a rock, a stone. It is just there -- nothing worth getting excited about. Well, you could get excited about a rock or a stone, but not because it is empty. You get excited about it because it is useful for something. could help some sick person, could be tied to the end of rope and used as a anchor, etc. But its emptiness is not that exciting or that interesting. Neither is the emptiness of all phenomena in general. Now, the wisdom that intuits the emptiness of persons and phenomena and burns away afflictions, that is a little more exciting. But on its own, non-dual emptiness is trivial and totally uninteresting.
muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni »

Never met a "tibetan teacher" talking so, acting so.
On top the responsability of the importance for this teaching. :shrug:
Last edited by muni on Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote:Never met a tibetan teacher talking like you, acting like you.

I am not Tibetan.
muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni »

Namdrol wrote:
muni wrote:Never met a tibetan teacher talking like you, acting like you.

I am not Tibetan.
I see. Dual American Buddhism. You are contradicting the Tibetan Masters, Vietnamese and so on.
Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote: On top the responsability of the importance for this teaching. :shrug:

You might consider this -- I have spent 25 years reading Madhyamaka, learning Madhyamaka, debating Madhyamaka. Yes, I can even teach Madhyamaka.

However, even Madhyamaka as a teaching has limitations.

Furthermore, emptiness is an antidote. Why be interested in a medicine you do not need?
Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
muni wrote:Never met a tibetan teacher talking like you, acting like you.

I am not Tibetan.
I see. Dual American Buddhism. You are contradicting the Tibetan Masters, Vietnamese and so on.
I am not contradicting anyone. Emptiness is a cure for views, not a view.
muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni »

:zzz:

...since they divide these (Space and Awareness) into two, they fall into deviation.
If these two do not become one without any duality, you will certainly not attain Buddhahood". Padmasambhava.
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conebeckham
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Re: Non duality.

Post by conebeckham »

Now, the wisdom that intuits the emptiness of persons and phenomena and burns away afflictions, that is a little more exciting
Agreed.

Now, let's talk about the nonduality of that wisdom with it's "object"--can we?

I think a lot of you are missing (what I take to be) Namdrol's point. If I may......"Emptiness" and "Nonduality" are both pedagogical methods, as well as, perhaps, pointers toward some sort of concept-transcending reality. Namdrol's not saying that either of these terms is "trivial" from a pedagogical POV. He's saying they are "trivial" from the POV of what is "Ultimately Real." Of course Madhyamika is important--but,as he points out, the "emptiness" of a rock IS boring. Conceptually, on a relative level, what can you do with the rock? And what can you do with the emptiness of a rock? And who cares? Because, really, what should be of interest to us is the wisdom that "realizes" the emptiness of the rock....and, more importantly, that realizes self-emptiness, etc.

When the finger is pointing to the moon, it is neither the finger, nor the moon, which is of ultimate interest. It is that which sees the moon which is of interest.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni »

The afflictions will automatically be undone when there is this very understanding. Such need for Rinpoche his teachings.
Last edited by muni on Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote::zzz:

...since they divide these (Space and Awareness) into two, they fall into deviation.
If these two do not become one without any duality, you will certainly not attain Buddhahood". Padmasambhava.

Yes, correct and those who do not understand what the meaning of dhātu and vidyā (dbying/rig) are, will not understand what Guru Rinpoche is actually talking about.

But this statement does not have anything to do with emptiness free from extremes since that is not what dbying, dhātu, is referring to here.

N
Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote:The afflictions will automatically be undone when there is this very understanding. Such need for Rinpoche his teachings.

Which Rinpoche are you referring to?
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conebeckham
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Re: Non duality.

Post by conebeckham »

He's talking about Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, Namdrol....I think.
The first post has a Youtube vid--I think it's DKR....but Youtube is blocked here where I presently am.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote:He's talking about Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, Namdrol....I think.
The first post has a Youtube vid--I think it's DKR....but Youtube is blocked here where I presently am.....

I see. Well, its true, some people need teachings from DKR.
muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni »

Look to the teachers of the real Namdrol. What a joke!

Sorry, the youtube cannot be seen anymore.
Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote:Look to the teachers of the real Namdrol. What a joke!

Huh?
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