Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:24 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Yeshe wrote:Yes, knocking off ngondro in the shortest possible time would not seem to be adhering to the 'spirit' of it.
I was actually thinking how awe inspiring that is, as it's taken me close to two years (and a couple of bouts of tendonitis) to do just the prostrations! The thing is that if one can do it with perfect mindfulness (highly unlikely) or with a semi-distracted mind (more than likely) then how quickly (or slowly) one does the accumulations won't really effect their overall effectiveness, just the time frame of the (in)effectiveness.


With verbal recitation, the mind is engaged as well, so does your mouth operate faster than thought? Surely that's not possible - even for you! LOL :)
Well that is the crux of the issue, when verbalising I go faster because I don't need to be so mindful whereas when I do them mentally I have to be more mindful, and thus I am slower!
:namaste:


The prostrations are great reminder of your age and your weight, as I found out! LOL :)
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Inge » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:32 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:At the Dhagpo Kündröl Ling monastery they give the drupla six weeks to finish the entire ngondro accumulations. :jawdrop:

On the subject of mental recitations, I personally find that they are lot slower than verbal recitations but then I can shoot off my mouth at a mile a minute!
:namaste:


Is this the ngondro accumulations of 111000 of each of the four special preliminaries? How is it possible to complete this in six weeks?

In six weeks are 3628800 seconds, that leaves 8,17 seconds for each repetition, that is if you practice around the clock for those six weeks.

I think also that a Lama once told that at his three year retreat they also completed ngondro in just few weeks. I don't remember if it was six weeks he said.

Do those people then have some special skill, or is it another kind of ngondro they practice?
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:40 pm

Hey Greg-
Are you sure about that? Because in the book from Gendun Rinpoche, he says five months for Mahamudra ngondro....which is more in keeping with most retreat schedules/programs. I could see 6 weeks for each of the four.....
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:48 pm

Yeshe wrote:
The prostrations are great reminder of your age and your weight, as I found out! LOL :)

:lol:
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:59 pm

Pero wrote:
Oh and I don't do nearly enough. I don't put much pressure on myself either. Sometimes I feel really bad for not practicing as much as I could though.


It's been my personal experience that if you feel bad about practice you fall behind on, it makes it harder to do. Kind wishes to you.

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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby heart » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:11 pm

Inge wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:At the Dhagpo Kündröl Ling monastery they give the drupla six weeks to finish the entire ngondro accumulations. :jawdrop:

On the subject of mental recitations, I personally find that they are lot slower than verbal recitations but then I can shoot off my mouth at a mile a minute!
:namaste:


Is this the ngondro accumulations of 111000 of each of the four special preliminaries? How is it possible to complete this in six weeks?

In six weeks are 3628800 seconds, that leaves 8,17 seconds for each repetition, that is if you practice around the clock for those six weeks.

I think also that a Lama once told that at his three year retreat they also completed ngondro in just few weeks. I don't remember if it was six weeks he said.

Do those people then have some special skill, or is it another kind of ngondro they practice?


It is impossible to do a complete Ngondro in that time. Even people who told me they did Ngondron in 5 month in retreat they didn't do the complete 111.111 of each, they did just until the Lama said; "that is enough!". Most people in three-year retreat don't complete the full number. In a movie from Tibet I saw monks doing prostration against an angled wall, goes a lot easier then. I feel a bit sad about all these unrealistic stories about Ngondro, I wonder what the purpose is?

/magnus

/magnus
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby tamdrin » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:27 pm

i heard about nuns doing 3000 prostrations a day, and monks doing 4-5000 (or someting) but to do Ngondro in 6 weeks would have to be 10,000 + a day of everything without taking a break.. Seems highly unlikely/difficult...
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Inge » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:32 pm

I have heard that some Bodhisattvas can stretch an instant out to last eons, and vice versa.
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:58 pm

tamdrin wrote:i heard about nuns doing 3000 prostrations a day, and monks doing 4-5000 (or someting) but to do Ngondro in 6 weeks would have to be 10,000 + a day of everything without taking a break.. Seems highly unlikely/difficult...
About 10,000 a day is the numbers they quoted me. Non-stop rock'n'roll around the clock!

heart wrote:It is impossible to do a complete Ngondro in that time. Even people who told me they did Ngondron in 5 month in retreat they didn't do the complete 111.111 of each, they did just until the Lama said; "that is enough!". Most people in three-year retreat don't complete the full number. In a movie from Tibet I saw monks doing prostration against an angled wall, goes a lot easier then. I feel a bit sad about all these unrealistic stories about Ngondro, I wonder what the purpose is?
You got any more jealousy and negativity you want to wheel out or are you done?
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:11 pm

three months to complete ngondro in retreat is the estimate i'm familiar with.. but each ngondro is different, no?
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:10 pm

I've done 10,000 prostrations in a day....and I've done it a few days in a row....So....11 days of doing that, I suppose, is possible. Brutal, but possible.
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Chaz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:17 pm

conebeckham wrote:I've done 10,000 prostrations in a day....and I've done it a few days in a row....So....11 days of doing that, I suppose, is possible. Brutal, but possible.



Brutal? To say the least!
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby tamdrin » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:23 pm

conebeckham wrote:I've done 10,000 prostrations in a day....and I've done it a few days in a row....So....11 days of doing that, I suppose, is possible. Brutal, but possible.




How many hours did that take?
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:26 pm

Chaz wrote:
conebeckham wrote:I've done 10,000 prostrations in a day....and I've done it a few days in a row....So....11 days of doing that, I suppose, is possible. Brutal, but possible.



Brutal? To say the least!


Well prostrations are pretty close to an ascetic practice, purification through suffering seems to be part of the equation.
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Pero » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:33 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:You got any more jealousy and negativity you want to wheel out or are you done?
:namaste:


:roll: :roll: :roll:

Heart wrote:It is impossible to do a complete Ngondro in that time.


Well actually, though pretty difficult, I think it may be possible. By my calculations the practice of Vajrasatva and Prostrations would take about 9 hours per day. Let say you sleep 6 hours and three hours for rest, toilet and food. That leaves 6 hours. I don't know how much time Guru Yoga and mandala offerings done in ngondro take, but maybe that time is sufficient? How long are the sessions of GY and mandala offerings?

(This is if you do all 4 every day and not one after finishing another, prostrations at 400 per hour and 21 Vajrasatva mantras per 10 minutes.)
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Chaz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:36 pm

tamdrin wrote:
conebeckham wrote:I've done 10,000 prostrations in a day....and I've done it a few days in a row....So....11 days of doing that, I suppose, is possible. Brutal, but possible.




How many hours did that take?



I'd sure like to know!

If you did your P's for 8 hours straight you'd have to do one prostration every 3 seconds - looking at my Ngondro manual, you'd be hard pressed to recite just the refuge formula in that time.

That doesn't take the phisical hardship into consideration. Geting up and down 10,000 times would be damned difficult.

So, you'd need more than 8 hours I'd imagine. At 12 hrs you'd need to do 13 P's / minute. That or my math is wrong :(.
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:38 pm

If you do the maths it's 444,444 accumulations over 48 days.

That's 9,258.25 accumulations per day.

Now you don't have to finish prostrations in order to accumulate Vajrasattva mantras or mandla offerings so it's not necessarily 9,258.25 prostrations per day. So 2,500 of each practice per day, starting at 4am and finishing in the wee hours of the night with breaks for eating, excreting and a few hours sleep is not impossible at all. Granted that it's harsh, but then closing yourself into a limited space which you will share exclusively with 5 other dudes (or chicks for the women amongst us) for three years ain't exactly a choice for the weak-willed anyway!
:namaste:

PS One of the dudes who had just come out of two consecutive three year retreats showed me how they did the prostrations, I can tell you that it was not a pretty sight. No boards, no walls, no discounts just sheer lunatic zeal!
PPS Who said you need to recite the entire refuge "formula" for each prostration?
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Pero » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:39 pm

Ngawang Drolma wrote:
Pero wrote:
Oh and I don't do nearly enough. I don't put much pressure on myself either. Sometimes I feel really bad for not practicing as much as I could though.


It's been my personal experience that if you feel bad about practice you fall behind on, it makes it harder to do. Kind wishes to you.


Hmm come to think of it seems like that for me too. What did you do about it? :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:41 pm

Pero wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:You got any more jealousy and negativity you want to wheel out or are you done?
:namaste:


:roll: :roll: :roll:

Heart wrote:It is impossible to do a complete Ngondro in that time.


Well actually, though pretty difficult, I think it may be possible. By my calculations the practice of Vajrasatva and Prostrations would take about 9 hours per day. Let say you sleep 6 hours and three hours for rest, toilet and food. That leaves 6 hours. I don't know how much time Guru Yoga and mandala offerings done in ngondro take, but maybe that time is sufficient? How long are the sessions of GY and mandala offerings?

(This is if you do all 4 every day and not one after finishing another, prostrations at 400 per hour and 21 Vajrasatva mantras per 10 minutes.)


It's pretty normal in retreat to do at least 4 three-hour sessions a day, so yeah then that would be 12 hours of accumulation a day. Vajrasattva is the slowest in terms of time taken for each repetition. At least in the lineage I follow Refuge and Bodhicitta are recited together while doing each prostration. . so this may be a shortcut.
But prostrations usually take longer if the person is not very fit- if they are old or out of shape, or if they don't have a great amount of exertion and faith. Guru yoga takes the least amount of time to accumulate, however depending on your Lama, you may receive a much larger number than 111,000 once you reach that point of the ngondro.
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Re: Mantra Recitation - Do You Do Enough?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:46 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:If you do the maths it's 444,444 accumulations over 48 days.

That's 9,258.25 accumulations per day.

Now you don't have to finish prostrations in order to accumulate Vajrasattva mantras or mandla offerings so it's not necessarily 9,258.25 prostrations per day. So 2,500 of each practice per day, starting at 4am and finishing in the wee hours of the night with breaks for eating, excreting and a few hours sleep is not impossible at all.


Maybe that's how you're taught, but in my lineage you only count one at a time- so if you begin with prostrations you may do 3 each of the other ngondro sections when you read through the entire ngondro sadhana each session, but you only count the prostrations until you've completed them.. then you begin counting the accumulations for the next section. .

I also learned the hard way that if you go one day without doing the ngondro, no matter what the excuse, then you have to start accumulations all over again from scratch, because the momentum is lost. .
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