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 Post subject: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Are the 5 precepts undertaken in the Vajrayana like they are in the Theravadin where a practitioner would undertake them daily? If so, does anybody have the formula whereby I would be able to add it to my daily prayers to be recited everyday.

Thanks a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:45 pm 
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They are taken voluntarily although meritorious. But if then usually for the whole life. But they may also be reduced down to 4 or 3.
The eight precepts however are usually taken for one day or so.
Some consider the 5 precept vows as one (of many) prerequisites for the bodhisattva vows.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:57 pm 
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Thank you.

Is there a formula in the Tibetan?

I have undertaken them for about 2 years using the Theravadin forumula but I had been doing the Gaden Lha Ghyema and wanted to undertake them so I just used the Pail formula in my daily prayers. Now I do Guru Rinpoche's seven line prayer but before it I would like to take Refuge (I have received Refuge from a Nyingmapa Lama), generate Bodhicitta by the standard formula (I take refuge until I am enlightened etc...) and then, if possible, instead of using the Pali formula for the 5 precepts use a Tibetan formula (if there is one)?


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:06 pm 
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sangyey wrote:
Is there a formula in the Tibetan?


Yes, but sorry I do no know it by heart and haven't got it in writing. I got the meaning of the tibetan translated and tried to repeat the tibetan sounds :smile: . But of course I cannot remember, sorry.

Kind regards


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Thank you for trying to help.

If anyone else knows please let me know. I've grown quite accustomed to reciting the precepts but since I try to follow the Tibetan system (even though I am a beginner) I would rather just say it in the Tibetan rather than a hybrid of different traditions.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:07 am 
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I am pretty sure that normally one would take the 5 precepts as upasaka/upasika (genyeng/genyengma) once from a preceptor, monk or lay (upasaka).

There are some schools of thought that say this is once in a lifetime, others say that if you transgress them you can renew them.

As to the daily vows, in the Theravadin system they sometimes are known as "Attasila"/"Uposotha" in the Mahayana they are known as "Mahayana Uposottha" (also known as upavastha) - the main difference being the motivation behind taking them. There 8 of these precepts to maintain, and one can take them by oneself once one has received them from a preceptor. They are taken before sunrise through to sunrise the next day.

These are in fact not Vajrayana vows at all, the belong to the class of pratimoksa. But in the context of Mahayana practitioners in the Tibetan system, normally after one has received them for the first time from a preceptor who has them, you can ask for a text. It would probably be first of all refuge, 7 limbed prayer, mandala offering, then the vow to be repeated three times, then commitment to keeping the 8, then recitation of the dharani of morality, then rejoicing.

Ask your teacher.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:28 pm 
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I don't think that sutra mentions that 5 precepts can be taken daily. The reason they are taken daily is that they would 'expire' every day, which is not the case for 5 precepts. At least I didn't see it in Chinese or Tibetan mahapitaka.

However, it's possible that you can choose the time you take the vows; as in sutra there's a story, mentions that a butcher accept the vow of not killing only at night, so in the next life he suffers at daytime and enjoy heaven bliss at night time. But there is no point to take it daily if you vow to take it whole life.

The precepts which Buddha said that you should take it daily, is 8 precepts plus the vow of eat at correct time, which is not to eat after noon. This kind of vows expire daily, so you should take it daily. All other pratimoksa vows are supposed to be accepted as life time, unless you give them up.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:09 pm 
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Is Pratimoskha (i.e., 5 precepts) categorized as Vinaya?

It seems that in the Tibetan tradition from what I can gather is these vows once taken from a preceptor are not normally undertaken again on a daily basis. I know that from my initial study of the Theravadin they normally are taken on a daily basis right after refuge in the three jewels I think sort of a way to act as a reminder or strengthener there of. I remember after looking at Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and commentary of a part of the Abdhidharma he mentions in terms of karmic strength that when the precepts are undertaken formally (not sure if he means on a daily basis or not)they they have more of a power as opposed to someone who merely refrains from such acts. I wondering if it the case with the Mahayana as well that they might be undertaken on a daily basis.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:09 am 
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sangyey wrote:
Is Pratimoskha (i.e., 5 precepts) categorized as Vinaya?

It seems that in the Tibetan tradition from what I can gather is these vows once taken from a preceptor are not normally undertaken again on a daily basis. I know that from my initial study of the Theravadin they normally are taken on a daily basis right after refuge in the three jewels I think sort of a way to act as a reminder or strengthener there of. I remember after looking at Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and commentary of a part of the Abdhidharma he mentions in terms of karmic strength that when the precepts are undertaken formally (not sure if he means on a daily basis or not)they they have more of a power as opposed to someone who merely refrains from such acts. I wondering if it the case with the Mahayana as well that they might be undertaken on a daily basis.


It's more like vinaya is categorized as pratimoksha.

In any tradition, upasaka vows are taken on a lifetime basis, like monks vows. Repeating them daily as a reminder is a possibility, but it shouldn't mean that you are retaking the vows daily. I am not 100% sure in the case of Theravada, maybe we should ask someone like Retro about this.

Uposottha vows however are specifically for 24 hours and consist of 8 vows. Don't confuse this with upasaka/upasika vows.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:02 pm 
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sangyey wrote:
Is Pratimoskha (i.e., 5 precepts) categorized as Vinaya?

It seems that in the Tibetan tradition from what I can gather is these vows once taken from a preceptor are not normally undertaken again on a daily basis. I know that from my initial study of the Theravadin they normally are taken on a daily basis right after refuge in the three jewels I think sort of a way to act as a reminder or strengthener there of. I remember after looking at Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and commentary of a part of the Abdhidharma he mentions in terms of karmic strength that when the precepts are undertaken formally (not sure if he means on a daily basis or not)they they have more of a power as opposed to someone who merely refrains from such acts. I wondering if it the case with the Mahayana as well that they might be undertaken on a daily basis.


Well, I think they just do it daily to strengthen it. Like we chant refuge and try to generate bodhicitta everyday. If you don't chant bodhicitta vow daily, that doesn't mean you will lose it.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:41 pm 
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sangyey wrote:
It seems that in the Tibetan tradition from what I can gather is these vows once taken from a preceptor are not normally undertaken again on a daily basis. I know that from my initial study of the Theravadin they normally are taken on a daily basis right after refuge in the three jewels I think sort of a way to act as a reminder or strengthener there of.

Recollecting the precepts every day certainly is very helpful in terms of mindfullness.

sangyey wrote:
I remember after looking at Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and commentary of a part of the Abdhidharma he mentions in terms of karmic strength that when the precepts are undertaken formally (not sure if he means on a daily basis or not)they they have more of a power as opposed to someone who merely refrains from such acts.

This certainly means taking the precepts from a preceptor in the context of a vow. It is taught in tibetan buddhism that vows vastly increase the merits accumulated.

Kind regards


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:02 pm 
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Does anyone undertake the 8 Mahayana precepts on a regular basis perhaps corresponding to the new moon and full moon days? I have undertaken them a few times and find them quite beneficial but haven't been able to keep a consistent practice of undertaking them on the particular days. Curious to know if anyone undertakes them on a regular basis.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:07 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
Recollecting the precepts every day certainly is very helpful in terms of mindfullness.

This certainly means taking the precepts from a preceptor in the context of a vow. It is taught in tibetan buddhism that vows vastly increase the merits accumulated.

Kind regards

:good:


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:42 pm 
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sangyey wrote:
Thank you.

Is there a formula in the Tibetan?

I have undertaken them for about 2 years using the Theravadin forumula but I had been doing the Gaden Lha Ghyema and wanted to undertake them so I just used the Pail formula in my daily prayers. Now I do Guru Rinpoche's seven line prayer but before it I would like to take Refuge (I have received Refuge from a Nyingmapa Lama), generate Bodhicitta by the standard formula (I take refuge until I am enlightened etc...) and then, if possible, instead of using the Pali formula for the 5 precepts use a Tibetan formula (if there is one)?


Quote:
SANG GYE CHHÖ DANG TS'HOK KYI CHHOK NAM LA
JANG CHHUP BAR DU DAK NI KYAP SU CHHI
DAK GI JIN SOK GYI PAY SÖ NAM KYI
DRO LA P'HEN CHHIR SANG GYE DRUP PAR SHOK

Until I reach enlightenment, I take refuge in all the Buddhas
And in the Dharma and all the noble Sangha.
By the merit of accomplishing the six perfections
May I achieve buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings.


I do not know if this exact wording is the same in all Tibetan schools - but here it is.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:58 pm 
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Oh, I think that is taking refuge and generating Bodhicitta. I was also looking for the wording of that as well.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:16 pm 
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Yes, this is the refuge and bodhicitta prayer. :twothumbsup:
Lise


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:27 am 
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The 5 Precepts which are often taken by Lay people are

1. No killing - This means that you can not kill anything which is Sentient, either directly or indirectly. This ties into the more advanced Pusa Precept of Vegetarianism at later stages.

2. No stealing - This means that you cannot take, or move something which is not freely given. The reason you cannot move something is that, if the person returns for their forgotten article, they will see it gone and experience mental anquish and give rise to the thought "The item has been stolen".

3. No Lying - This means that you cannot tell a Lie of any kind, even white lies. In the eyes of Buddha all lies are Black.

4. No Inappropriate sex - This is covered in greater detail in another post, but simply it means only 1 man + 1 women in marriage is allowable by laypeople. For monks no sex is allowed of any kind.

5. No intoxicants - This means not just No Alcohol, but includes other intoxicants such as Drugs. If one where to view this precept as only No Alcohol then that would mean that one could arrive to temple strung out on Cocaine. Obviously, that is not good.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:59 am 
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enjitsu wrote:
4. No Inappropriate sex - ... but simply it means only 1 man + 1 women in marriage is allowable by laypeople.


Since this is the Vajrayana forum I would encourage to refer to the corresponding tibetan sources which state things a bit more elaborated and different and thus avoid misunderstandings that may be caused by this overly brief statement.


Kind regards


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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:47 am 
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TMingyur wrote:
enjitsu wrote:
4. No Inappropriate sex - ... but simply it means only 1 man + 1 women in marriage is allowable by laypeople.


Since this is the Vajrayana forum I would encourage to refer to the corresponding tibetan sources which state things a bit more elaborated and different and thus avoid misunderstandings that may be caused by this overly brief statement.


Kind regards

Obviously that poster doesn't seem to get it or h/she doesn't give a damn...not that reminders have not been forthcoming in his/her other posts....kinda like fundamentalists who come crashing thru people's gate and expect attention...

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 Post subject: Re: 5 Precepts
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:41 am 
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TMingyur wrote:
enjitsu wrote:
4. No Inappropriate sex - ... but simply it means only 1 man + 1 women in marriage is allowable by laypeople.


Since this is the Vajrayana forum I would encourage to refer to the corresponding tibetan sources which state things a bit more elaborated and different and thus avoid misunderstandings that may be caused by this overly brief statement.


Kind regards


"The Fourth precept is not indulging in sexual misconduct. If we are married, this means having no sexual relations other than with our life partner. In general, the precept means not having relations with someone protected by the Dharma, someone protected by belonging to another, or someone immature or unprepared. Someone protected by the Dharma would be a person following the sojong or precepts for a day, or who is living up to certain precepts for several days, or a monk or nun who is following lifelong precepts. Someone belonging to another would in general be a married person. In marriage, each partner has promised to be faithful to the other, so that would be interfering with a faithful relationship. A person may be immature or unprepared because of age or because of some sickness that could be aggravated by a sexual relationship. This also refers to the use of force; for example, certain kings might use their power to force a woman to surrender to their wishes whether she is willing or not."

-Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche, Dharma Paths

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