Tibetan Zen

[Malcolm]

For me, I just have faith in the one who holds the throne of Jigten Sumgon, in particular, the present Drikung Kyabgon, who is an ocean of teachings, transmissions, and qualities. Obviously His Holiness is aware and well educated on all the points discussed here, given that he is a scholar and researcher in early Tibetan history, as well as a holder of mahamudra and dzogchen lineages.

Once the holiness of one's authority is invoked, conversation over.

That actually wasn't my point.

Since the man knows all the differences between these traditions and approaches and views, his statement, which reflects a larger unity, is not made out of ignorance. He's giving an instruction and I'm wanting to learn.

You presented it as a religious statement, "For me, I just have faith in the one who holds the throne of Jigten Sumgon, in particular, the present Drikung Kyabgon, who is an ocean of teachings, transmissions, and qualities..."

[Urgyen Dorje]

That actually wasn't my point.

Since the man knows all the differences between these traditions and approaches and views, his statement, which reflects a larger unity, is not made out of ignorance. He's giving an instruction and I'm wanting to learn.

You presented it as a religious statement, "For me, I just have faith in the one who holds the throne of Jigten Sumgon, in particular, the present Drikung Kyabgon, who is an ocean of teachings, transmissions, and qualities..."

I guess I don't understand. I'm out of line for expressing faith in Drikung Kyabgon?

I'd say my samaya with him would be pretty worthless if I didn't take his word seriously enough to think about them, question them, and meditate on them.

[Malcolm]

That actually wasn't my point.

Since the man knows all the differences between these traditions and approaches and views, his statement, which reflects a larger unity, is not made out of ignorance. He's giving an instruction and I'm wanting to learn.

You presented it as a religious statement, "For me, I just have faith in the one who holds the throne of Jigten Sumgon, in particular, the present Drikung Kyabgon, who is an ocean of teachings, transmissions, and qualities..."

I guess I don't understand. I'm out of line for expressing faith in Drikung Kyabgon?

No, but since you framed your confidence in religious terms, no one can disagree with him without offending your religious sensibility.

[Urgyen Dorje]

No, but since you framed your confidence in religious terms, no one can disagree with him without offending your religious sensibility.

From my seats, philosophical disagreement has precisely nothing to do with "offending religious sensibiilty".

I'm also not accustomed to people's religious sensibilities being respected in Buddhist circles-- at least on the internet-- so it's not something I expect.

[DGA]

Khenpo Sodargye, in the video posted here, around the 44th minute compares Chan's view of the nature of mind to Semde. He is probably the closest among Tibetan teachers to make any comparisons between current Chan and Dzogchen, as he actually lectures on the Platform Sutra. But probably the most well known practitioner of both Chan and Dzogchen is (was) Yogi Chen.

Further on Khenpo Sodargye's presentation, it is quite clear he approaches Chan from a very Tibetan interpretation, like saying that Chan is based on the Platform and the Surangama sutras, plus it transmits an oral tradition of upadesa based on those two scriptures. An interesting view, but hardly representative of anyone. Nevertheless, it shows how difficult it is to make any comparisons when the fundamental elements are not clarified. But in order to do that, the person should be aware of not only some Chan and Dzogchen teaching, but the larger history of Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism. Alas, Khenpo Sodargye is explicitly against any scholarly study of Dzogchen, claiming that it should not be subject to critical investigation and logic.

Apropos of the Surangama Sutra and the hypothesis that Dzogchen influenced Ch'an, an influence that must have predated the composition of the Surangama Sutra, which is a relatively late text...

I wonder what is to be made of the passages in the Surangama Sutra regarding the practice of pressing on one's eyes to see "flowers in the sky." It seems to me that the authors of the Surangama Sutra may be aware of and responding to certain practices.

[HandsomeMonkeyking]

Of course there is an essential difference. It is described in detail by Nubchen.

In which test? Is this available somewhere as an translation?
Didn't find anything yet.

Well the Chetsang did say "essential difference...". Only Nyingmapas assert differences in the view of the 9 yanas, the rest say there's only differences between Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Mahayana, with all of the Mahayana variants' ultimate view being synonymous with Prajnaparamita or freedom from extremes.

I am very new here. What differences do the Nyingmapa state? Where can I read more about this?

[Thomas Amundsen]

What differences do the Nyingmapa state? Where can I read more about this?

A Garland of Views by Padmasambhava with commentary by Mipham Rinpoche.

[HandsomeMonkeyking]

A Garland of Views by Padmasambhava with commentary by Mipham Rinpoche.

Nice, just ordered this recently!

[Sahajaya]

As a path, there are differences in method. The ultimate realization is the same (no essential difference).

[CedarTree]

As a path, there are differences in method. The ultimate realization is the same (no essential difference).

Ditto

[Malcolm]

As a path, there are differences in method. The ultimate realization is the same (no essential difference).

No, there are differences.

[CedarTree]

As a path, there are differences in method. The ultimate realization is the same (no essential difference).

No, there are differences.

?

[MalaBeads]

There is no rainbow body, or thogrol instructions in zen. Is that what you are referring to Malcolm?
So the "realization of rainbow body" would be one difference in realization between the two methods.

[Matylda]

There is no rainbow body, or thogrol instructions in zen. Is that what you are referring to Malcolm?
So the "realization of rainbow body" would be one difference in realization between the two methods.

Yes there is nothing like that.. however there is an interesting story about ryokan.. when he died and was cremated his bones had sing of the 5 colors.. trekcho instructions seem to be very close to advanced zen instructions..

[CedarTree]

There is no rainbow body, or thogrol instructions in zen. Is that what you are referring to Malcolm?
So the "realization of rainbow body" would be one difference in realization between the two methods.

Yes there is nothing like that.. however there is an interesting story about ryokan.. when he died and was cremated his bones had sing of the 5 colors.. trekcho instructions seem to be very close to advanced zen instructions..

Matylda, Thank you for sharing that story of Ryokan. He is a very interesting Soto Zen Monk to say the least If anyone may have achieved Rainbow body maybe it was him,

[Malcolm]

There is no rainbow body, or thogrol instructions in zen. Is that what you are referring to Malcolm?
So the "realization of rainbow body" would be one difference in realization between the two methods.

Yes there is nothing like that.. however there is an interesting story about ryokan.. when he died and was cremated his bones had sing of the 5 colors.. trekcho instructions seem to be very close to advanced zen instructions..

Matylda, Thank you for sharing that story of Ryokan. He is a very interesting Soto Zen Monk to say the least If anyone may have achieved Rainbow body maybe it was him,

Relics are common to all traditions. Rainbow body is something very specific and not shared with traditions outside Tibetan Vajrayana.

[CedarTree]

Yes there is nothing like that.. however there is an interesting story about ryokan.. when he died and was cremated his bones had sing of the 5 colors.. trekcho instructions seem to be very close to advanced zen instructions..

Matylda, Thank you for sharing that story of Ryokan. He is a very interesting Soto Zen Monk to say the least If anyone may have achieved Rainbow body maybe it was him,

Relics are common to all traditions. Rainbow body is something very specific and not shared with traditions outside Tibetan Vajrayana.

Malcolm if you are allowed in your tradition to detail a bit about why Rainbow Body is unique to only Dzogchen I think many would be appreciative.

I haven't even heard of this practice in regards to Mahamudra though I am not very well versed in the Tibetan traditions. At least not to your level.

[MalaBeads]

however there is an interesting story about ryokan.. when he died and was cremated his bones had sing of the 5 colors.. trekcho instructions seem to be very close to advanced zen instructions..

That's very interesting....what do you mean when you say "his bones had sing of the 5 colors"?

[lelopa]

however there is an interesting story about ryokan.. when he died and was cremated his bones had sing of the 5 colors.. trekcho instructions seem to be very close to advanced zen instructions..

That's very interesting....what do you mean when you say "his bones had sing of the 5 colors"?

Sign???

[Sahajaya]

Thogal, trechod, rainbowbody, dis and dat are processes - path. The essence of mind is the same ultimately. The goal is goaless -- instant presence, as Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi -- conditionless. Rest there.