Dharma protectors and samaya

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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:14 pm

orgyen jigmed wrote:
But when I have very recently posed the same question to CNN whether the Tsen Yava Rukshi, Tsiu Marpo and Jagpa Melen are the same deity with a different name, he simply said: "No, not the same even though they all belong to the same powerful class of Tsen..." he then continued: " see, I am not you and you are not me!"


Interesting, I never asked him, I merely assumed. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:52 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Yeah, Traktung Khepa or Traktung Yeshe Dorje, from Michigan. He's considered to be a tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje per Thinley Norbu Rinpoche.


No, per himself. His association with DTR was very subsequent to his proclamation of his own tulkuship. I have observed the development of Kirkpatrick's self-mythology for 20 years on the internet. The DTR relationship is rather late.

But this is off-topic, and if people choose to believe Kirkpatrick's claims about himself, that is their business and none of mine.

Appreciate the clarification!



If Shadrol or David Chapman or one of the other Aro people that sometimes drop in read this they might clarify, but my understanding is that the Aro have distanced themselves from Kirkpatrick.

I think all phenomena of this kind ( crayfish ) need to be seen in the context of authentic teaching and lineage..after all the lower siddhis are relatively easily achieved and may indicate very little in the way of true Dharma.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Reibeam » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
orgyen jigmed wrote:
But when I have very recently posed the same question to CNN whether the Tsen Yava Rukshi, Tsiu Marpo and Jagpa Melen are the same deity with a different name, he simply said: "No, not the same even though they all belong to the same powerful class of Tsen..." he then continued: " see, I am not you and you are not me!"


Interesting, I never asked him, I merely assumed. Thanks for clearing that up.



Thanks Orgyen Jigmed!

Okay, that makes a little more sense. There is an article in the Mirror where he talks about discovering that presence in New Mexico and it eludes that they are two different beings, but I couldn't tell.

I am still trying to find out any particular details and if there are any practices directly associated other than what's in the TUN. Like a particular invocation, its probably enough to do what's in the TUN, but I am interested because its particular to the country I am in. Maybe asking at the NY retreat might be a good idea..............if I can get there.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Soar » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:38 pm

heart wrote:Just curious, but most crayfish in my neck of the wood are not red but rather dark brown until they are cooked, and I presume it was alive? Also, I understand crayfish can hold water in their gels (like we can hold air in our lungs) but isn't 45 minutes a very long time?
/magnus


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"Crawfish can live out of water for several days under proper conditions.
Since crawfish have specialized gills to breathe out water, they are able to survive as long as those gills are wet. If they are in a humid environment, they can stay out of water for months!"

But i think y'all missing the point, it wasn't a crayfish!
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:42 pm

They are the same animal.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Konchog1 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:12 pm

Isn't Tsui Marpo a Tibetan spirit subdued by Padmasambhava? Why and how is he the protector of North America? Since when?

And while we're at it: If there are Tsen, Mamos, Gyalpo etc. all over the world, why the focus on Dakinis in Tantra? If they have to be female spirits why not Mamos or Yakshinis? PM me if you don't want to derail the thread further.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:58 pm

Konchog1 wrote:Isn't Tsui Marpo a Tibetan spirit subdued by Padmasambhava? Why and how is he the protector of North America? Since when?


Since never, it was my error in assuming that Yava Rukshi was a name for Tsi'u Marpo.


And while we're at it: If there are Tsen, Mamos, Gyalpo etc. all over the world, why the focus on Dakinis in Tantra? If they have to be female spirits why not Mamos or Yakshinis? PM me if you don't want to derail the thread further.


There are two kinds of dakinis, wisdom and worldly. The focus is on Wisdom...
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Konchog1 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:Isn't Tsui Marpo a Tibetan spirit subdued by Padmasambhava? Why and how is he the protector of North America? Since when?


Since never, it was my error in assuming that Yava Rukshi was a name for Tsi'u Marpo.


And while we're at it: If there are Tsen, Mamos, Gyalpo etc. all over the world, why the focus on Dakinis in Tantra? If they have to be female spirits why not Mamos or Yakshinis? PM me if you don't want to derail the thread further.


There are two kinds of dakinis, wisdom and worldly. The focus is on Wisdom...
Why isn't the focus on . . . wisdom Mamos instead?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:46 pm

Konchog1 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:Isn't Tsui Marpo a Tibetan spirit subdued by Padmasambhava? Why and how is he the protector of North America? Since when?


Since never, it was my error in assuming that Yava Rukshi was a name for Tsi'u Marpo.


And while we're at it: If there are Tsen, Mamos, Gyalpo etc. all over the world, why the focus on Dakinis in Tantra? If they have to be female spirits why not Mamos or Yakshinis? PM me if you don't want to derail the thread further.


There are two kinds of dakinis, wisdom and worldly. The focus is on Wisdom...
Why isn't the focus on . . . wisdom Mamos instead?


There is — Palden Lhamo, Ekajati, Mazor Gyalmo, etc.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Soar » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:03 am

Simon E. wrote:They are the same animal.


Not the spelling, my point is the rinpoche never said he saw a crayfish, that is only what the writer of the story saw.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:05 am

Soar wrote:
Simon E. wrote:They are the same animal.


Not the spelling, my point is the rinpoche never said he saw a crayfish, that is only what the writer of the story saw.


Good point.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby orgyen jigmed » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:00 am

Reibeam wrote:Instead of making a new thread, maybe one of you on this thread knows. I have read the DC books and listened to a number of retreats that speak of Guardians and am left with one question. In relation to ones of specific parts of the world in the Medium TUN book chNNr gives very little description for Oceania and North America and says those people living in that area should find out the details about the specific Guardian in their own country. Where do I look and who do I ask to find out more about the North American one? i read a short article in the Mirror, but that is all i can find. Please PM me if that is more appropriate. Thanks!


In answer to your question here is a quote from CNN why the Rukshi, the Sanskrit word for the class of Tsen in Tibetan, are particularly associated with North America:

"Characteristically, this class of beings and its provocations especially occur in North America. For this reason when we do the Puja of the Guardians in North America we also do the Puja for the class of Tsen, Yava Rukshi. Their dimension is red-coloured, and in North America, originally everything is red; Native Americans too are a little reddish"
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Sherlock » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:10 am

Malcolm wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:That's the problem with prophecy. What does red face mean? It's not red skin. Red face.

Black face means a person is angry, so red face could mean a country of lustful people. Or something else entirely.


It very clearly means Tibetans; since they used to smear their faces with red pigment.

At any rate, for more than a thousand years educated Tibetans have understood the term གདོང་དམར་ཅན, "red faced" to refer to themselves. Why? Because the Kaṃsadeśavyākaraṇa explicitly refers to Tibetans as "the red-faced" ones.


I think it's not just the red pigment (although that probably is an important part of the "red-faced" epithet). If you have seen rural Tibetans, very often many of them have very red, ruddy cheeks.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Karinos » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:North American is Tsiu Marpo. Ocean is Marutse.


Hi, and which one for Europe please? thanks
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:42 pm

Karinos wrote:
Malcolm wrote:North American is Tsiu Marpo. Ocean is Marutse.


Hi, and which one for Europe please? thanks


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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Karinos » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Karinos wrote:
Malcolm wrote:North American is Tsiu Marpo. Ocean is Marutse.


Hi, and which one for Europe please? thanks


Pramoha



thank you :)

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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby theanarchist » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:25 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
Jikan wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote: one morning at breakfast Rinpoche (Traktung Khepa) said "[/i]


is the person called Rinpoche in the story named Traktung Khepa?

thanks

Yeah, Traktung Khepa or Traktung Yeshe Dorje, from Michigan. He's considered to be a tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje per Thinley Norbu Rinpoche.



Ouch. That self proclaimed fraud. He is certainly not "considered" to be the incarnation of any buddhist master.

The only legitimate tulku of Do Khyentse that I know of is Alak Zenkar Rinpoche.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby ngodrup » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:14 am

Since Hung Kar Rinpoche is also, then it's jut as possible there are three or more--
even a westerner.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby asunthatneversets » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:55 pm

Curious about some opinions on this statement:

"Hello,

My name is Pema Khandro and I first heard of Traktung Rinpoche when a friend of mine wrote to Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche about him. Dungse Rinpoche is the son of Dudjom Rinoche and one of the highest Nyingma Lamas alive - and Traktung Rinpoche's root lama. My friend received a letter back from Dungse Rinpoche's assistant, saying that Traktung Rinpoche (referring to him as Rinpoche) was an excellent teacher of pure Dharma and had Dungse Rinpoche's complete blessing. Later, 3 years ago, I was fortunate enough to be at Pema Osel Ling, teaching seat of Tharchin Rinpoche, when Traktung Rinpoche was there for private teachings with Thinley Norbu Rinpoche and the three year retreat people. Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche had Traktung Rinpoche sit on a small throne - the only other person not sitting on the floor was Dungse Rinpoche himself. The Tibetan Lamas of Pema Osel Ling offered Traktung Rinpoche katas and all referred to him as 'Rinpoche'. In a public tsog feast Traktung Rinpoche was given a public place of honor by Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, and Dungse Rinpoche spoke of him to the gathered group - again referring to him as 'Rinpoche' and saying he was very courageous in upholding 'pure dharma'. Later in the evening Thinley Norbu Rinpoche said 'I love Traktung Rinpoche very sincerely from my heart.'

Last year I was at Pema Oself Ling when Traktung Rinpoche came to visit Tharchin Rinpoche. Again he was treated with great respect. When he insisted on prostrating to Tharchin Rinpoche, Tharchin Rinpoche also prostrated to him. Tharchin Rinpoche also had all the three year retreat people offer katas to Traktung Rinpoche and he spoke of Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche's respect for Traktung Rinpoche. Tharchin Rinpoche is coming to teach at Traktung Rinpoche's center Tspogyelgar this summer and offering the Dudjom Tersar Three Roots Empowerments. I have also seen the long life prayer wirtten by the Tibetan Nyingma Lama Orgyen Tanzin Rinpoche which explains Traktung Rinpoche as the tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje, a high lama from the Golok region of Tibet. Lama Tanzin Rinpoche is a direct student of Dudjom Rinpoche and Dungse Rinpoche. I have also spoken with Hamta Tulku Lama Yonton a high Geluk and Nyingmapa tulku from Golok who confirmed this recognition for me again.

I have now heard Traktung Rinpoche speak several times in Germany and also listened to his talks on Vajrayana on the internet. His knowledge of Vajrayana is astounding - especially in the area of the yogic traditions of 3rd Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, Longchenpa's commentary on Guyagharba and the works of Dudjom Rinpoche. His knowledge of the subtle aspects of the stages of the path in Kagyu and Nyingmapa traditions is profound. Also his knowledge of world religions, he has a degree in comparative religion, is amazing. I know from some of Traktung Rinpoche's students that he refuses to allow any students of his to ever defend him against attacks. Traktung Rinpoche never charges for Dharma teachings and currently also does not accept students. Traktung Rinpoche himself is very humble and makes light of his 'recognition' often refusing to allow anyone around him to call him 'Rinpoche' He refuses to 'post certificates' - he says that since he does not accept students he prefers people to simply evaluate his words in their own right by comparing them to pure dharma sources - as the Buddha suggested. Still it is good to be careful spreading any negative gossips about sublime beings so I have written this little bit which I know first hand about Traktung Rinpoche to help clarify this matter.

Sncerely, Pema Khandro"


http://www.dharmaling.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1284&page=2
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:39 am

I'd say that regarding Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche: yes I've also learned from close disciples of
his how fond he was of Traktung Rinpoche. So I'd assume all the rest of that account is factual.

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