Dharma protectors and samaya

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Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:09 pm

Adi wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Protectors are for those who have entered secret mantra in the proper way. If you do not have samaya, you do not need any sort of protector apart from the Three Jewels. I am really not certain at all that recorded empowerments have the necessary qualities to confer the stream of blessings. In fact, I am sure that they don't.

M


That's the way I heard it, too.

Adi



Malcolm could you inform or explain that what is the connection between having samaya and then needing a dharma protector. what is the function of the Dharmapalas in relation to samaya? hmm, i have more questions or a better question because i can't form it because i don't have enough knowledge aboutt what i am asking about.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:08 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:
Adi wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Protectors are for those who have entered secret mantra in the proper way. If you do not have samaya, you do not need any sort of protector apart from the Three Jewels. I am really not certain at all that recorded empowerments have the necessary qualities to confer the stream of blessings. In fact, I am sure that they don't.

M


That's the way I heard it, too.

Adi



Malcolm could you inform or explain that what is the connection between having samaya and then needing a dharma protector. what is the function of the Dharmapalas in relation to samaya? hmm, i have more questions or a better question because i can't form it because i don't have enough knowledge aboutt what i am asking about.


If you do not have samaya, then there is no need for a Dharma protector since Dharma protectors, in principle, are restricted to highest yoga tantra.

That said, in general we can consider the four directional guardians and so on as "protectors" in the Sūtra system since they will automatically protect those who uphold the Dharma of any of the three vehicles.

Otherwise, Mahakāla, etc., only protect those who have samaya from empowerments.
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at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby conebeckham » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:16 pm

I'm not Malcolm, and I'd be interested in his response as well, but here are a few thoughts on the topic.

If you have received HYT empowerment then you have Samayas....there's lots that can be said about Samayas, but the main thing is that you must guard your pledges and maintain them to the best of your ability. In every manual that I've ever read, it is always stressed that first one gains the empowerment, then one practices, while maintaining one's samayas. Without guarding the samayas, there is no accomplishment. Samayas are perhaps more important than the actual practice sadhana itself.

There are samayas that concern view, and samayas that concern action or activity. In addition, there may be samayas regarding the practice or recitation requirements. For many protector propitiations, it is required that one offer torma, for instance, on a daily basis. That's a samaya. Without the Jenang, Jinlab, or Wang of a give practice, though, there is no requirement. So that's one aspect of samaya regarding protectors.

Another aspect is that Protectors activity is to guard our samayas. Some people think protectors are there to "banish outer obstacles" on the path. That's partly true, really....but more importantly, the obstacles we create ourselves, through misguided actions, are the biggest problems. So, protectors can manifest in our experience to remind us, or help us, to keep our samayas. In this sense, they protect us from ourselves. This is another aspect of the relation of protectors and samaya.

Malcolm said that, for those without empowerments, the 3 Jewels are our protectors. If you contemplate how this can be, and think about Protectors,empowerment and associated samaya, and how the Inner Path of Tantra works, you can maybe glimpse what the true identity of Protectors may be, as well. There's much else that can be said about the actual practices of protectors, if the student is empowered and engaged in the practice. Not appropriate to discuss here, though.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:24 pm

ahuh, thanks malcolm and conebeckham for your comments.

Its interesting that samaya is such an important factor in vajrayana, definitely in the top 3 of most important factors of vajrayana practice. yet i haven't received any teachings about samaya. did i miss this being born too late, not being here when the first wave of tibetan buddhism came to west.

i will have to buy Garchen Rinpoches detailed explanation teaching cd on samaya to get an understanding, i guess the other source is Kongtruls books? is it the book 6 that he talks about tantra. i might have asked this question before conebeckham, but i haven't had the chance to buy the book yet.

have to get into it. otherwise why practice vajrayana if you are not aware of what samaya really is, of the different samayas etc.. unlucky for me that i have not found my root guru yet. maybe i have found my future root guru but he lives in nepal and doesn't travel to europe anymore. weak connection…

anyway, thanks for the info.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:28 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:
have to get into it. otherwise why practice vajrayana if you are not aware of what samaya really is, of the different samayas etc.. unlucky for me that i have not found my root guru yet. maybe i have found my future root guru but he lives in nepal and doesn't travel to europe anymore. weak connection…

anyway, thanks for the info.


In general, one is not informed of what samaya is until after one has taken empowerment. Discussions of samaya border on breaking it, actually.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby conebeckham » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:31 pm

The first rule of Samaya is, don't talk about samaya.

:spy:

This is becoming my favorite meme these days.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:33 pm

eheh, what did i just do on the other chat. well i don't think it will do any harm in that context.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:
have to get into it. otherwise why practice vajrayana if you are not aware of what samaya really is, of the different samayas etc.. unlucky for me that i have not found my root guru yet. maybe i have found my future root guru but he lives in nepal and doesn't travel to europe anymore. weak connection…

anyway, thanks for the info.


In general, one is not informed of what samaya is until after one has taken empowerment. Discussions of samaya border on breaking it, actually.


maybe that is the case if you are in close connection with the Lama before the empowerment and he can teach extensively and in detail to you or your group.


i can't say what i want to say because i would be breaking my….
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:45 pm

Damn samayas... can't keep them, always break them! Praise Buddha for tsok practice!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:07 pm

noted to be said Malcolm that i received Achi Empowerment before i had received any HYT empowerments and Achi has helped me a lot in any case.

So personally i believe Dharmapalas do help you even if you don't have HYT empowerment. maybe not the same way but still give divine help to help you on the path of Dharma.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Reibeam » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:29 pm

Instead of making a new thread, maybe one of you on this thread knows. I have read the DC books and listened to a number of retreats that speak of Guardians and am left with one question. In relation to ones of specific parts of the world in the Medium TUN book chNNr gives very little description for Oceania and North America and says those people living in that area should find out the details about the specific Guardian in their own country. Where do I look and who do I ask to find out more about the North American one? i read a short article in the Mirror, but that is all i can find. Please PM me if that is more appropriate. Thanks!
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:33 pm

Reibeam wrote:Instead of making a new thread, maybe one of you on this thread knows. I have read the DC books and listened to a number of retreats that speak of Guardians and am left with one question. In relation to ones of specific parts of the world in the Medium TUN book chNNr gives very little description for Oceania and North America and says those people living in that area should find out the details about the specific Guardian in their own country. Where do I look and who do I ask to find out more about the North American one? i read a short article in the Mirror, but that is all i can find. Please PM me if that is more appropriate. Thanks!


North American is Tsiu Marpo. Ocean is Marutse.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Reibeam » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Reibeam wrote:Instead of making a new thread, maybe one of you on this thread knows. I have read the DC books and listened to a number of retreats that speak of Guardians and am left with one question. In relation to ones of specific parts of the world in the Medium TUN book chNNr gives very little description for Oceania and North America and says those people living in that area should find out the details about the specific Guardian in their own country. Where do I look and who do I ask to find out more about the North American one? i read a short article in the Mirror, but that is all i can find. Please PM me if that is more appropriate. Thanks!


North American is Tsiu Marpo. Ocean is Marutse.



So the name in the TUN book is just another name for Tsiu Marpo?
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:04 pm

Reibeam wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Reibeam wrote:Instead of making a new thread, maybe one of you on this thread knows. I have read the DC books and listened to a number of retreats that speak of Guardians and am left with one question. In relation to ones of specific parts of the world in the Medium TUN book chNNr gives very little description for Oceania and North America and says those people living in that area should find out the details about the specific Guardian in their own country. Where do I look and who do I ask to find out more about the North American one? i read a short article in the Mirror, but that is all i can find. Please PM me if that is more appropriate. Thanks!


North American is Tsiu Marpo. Ocean is Marutse.



So the name in the TUN book is just another name for Tsiu Marpo?


Yes.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Konchog1 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:23 pm

Tsiu Marpo is tsi'u dmar right?
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby conebeckham » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:35 am

Yes.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:55 am

Speaking of Tsiu Marpo, a friend shared this story the other day:

"Living near Rinpoche and being a close disciple over the last 20 years I have been lucky enough to see some astounding things like the day the lord of the Tsen protectors [Tsiu Marpo] came to a Drupchen. This was in 1999.

We were practicing the Hayagriva sadhana on forest land in Indiana and one morning at breakfast Rinpoche (Traktung Khepa) said 'Today the Lord of the Tsen will be paying us a visit. He is the holder of this land, lord of these forests.' The Tsen are a male warrior spirit that live in the woodlands. They are always red. Those of us at breakfast were most intrigued. The sadhana began and Rinpoche was sitting with us under the large tent outdoors, maybe 30 or so people. He was sitting facing us in the front middle at a puja table.

Suddenly, in the middle of the protector prayers, from a stream about 100 yards away came walking slowly the largest deep red crayfish I have ever seen. It was huge, maybe 4 to 5 inches long with large pincers. The crayfish walked through the grass and directly in front of Rinpoche puja table where it raised up its pincers waving them in the air. The crayfish stayed for the duration of the entire sadhana, about 45 minutes and as the final prayers of dedication ended it simply walked back to the stream.

When the sadhana was over Rinpoche smiled and said 'He was marvelous wasn’t he!' All beings share in the interconnecting tendrels of wisdom and compassion. All beings long into and for the beauty, truth and goodness of Guru Rinpoche’s wisdom splendor."
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby alpha » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:07 am

asunthatneversets wrote:Speaking of Tsiu Marpo, a friend shared this story the other day:

"Living near Rinpoche and being a close disciple over the last 20 years I have been lucky enough to see some astounding things like the day the lord of the Tsen protectors [Tsiu Marpo] came to a Drupchen. This was in 1999.

We were practicing the Hayagriva sadhana on forest land in Indiana and one morning at breakfast Rinpoche (Traktung Khepa) said 'Today the Lord of the Tsen will be paying us a visit. He is the holder of this land, lord of these forests.' The Tsen are a male warrior spirit that live in the woodlands. They are always red. Those of us at breakfast were most intrigued. The sadhana began and Rinpoche was sitting with us under the large tent outdoors, maybe 30 or so people. He was sitting facing us in the front middle at a puja table.

Suddenly, in the middle of the protector prayers, from a stream about 100 yards away came walking slowly the largest deep red crayfish I have ever seen. It was huge, maybe 4 to 5 inches long with large pincers. The crayfish walked through the grass and directly in front of Rinpoche puja table where it raised up its pincers waving them in the air. The crayfish stayed for the duration of the entire sadhana, about 45 minutes and as the final prayers of dedication ended it simply walked back to the stream.

When the sadhana was over Rinpoche smiled and said 'He was marvelous wasn’t he!' All beings share in the interconnecting tendrels of wisdom and compassion. All beings long into and for the beauty, truth and goodness of Guru Rinpoche’s wisdom splendor."


So does Rinpoche mean that that particular crayfish was a Tsen Warrior ?
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:18 am

alpha wrote:So does Rinpoche mean that that particular crayfish was a Tsen Warrior ?

Apparently so, taking the form of a crayfish. Either that or it was a messenger of the Tsen, sort of like black animals are supposed to be messengers of Mahakāla. Enjoyable anecdote either way.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Caz » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:27 am

How was it Tsui Marpo came to be associated with North America ?
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