Validity of recorded empowerments

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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby haha » Sat May 03, 2014 5:09 pm

If the thankas or statues are blessed, then they are the sources of blessing. The blessed deities pictures are not same as the picture of vampires or pron stars. Are they??? Or deos one need actually to be present of those deities for receiving the blessing? otherwise there is no use of keeping the blessed thankas and statues.

Generally, the vajra master does preparatory retreat with particular pranidhana/aspiration before giving any empowerment. Why cannot those particular videos do benefit if GR has included the recipients of those videos in his aspiration? otherwise he would not say so. Why cannot there be any dependent origination in the aspiration?

What Maclom is saying in this topic is generally acceptable view. Because many aspects of rippening and liberating empowerments are only possible in the presence of the Vajra master.

For an empowerment to have real effect, it is necessary, of
course, that certain external conditions be met. It is also
necessary that the lama who gives it has received authentic
transmission and executes the ceremony with accuracy,
without adding or removing anything. Finally, it is necessary
that disciples who receive it have full confidence in the lama,
some understanding of the process, and conviction in its
efficiency.
source: Secret Buddhism Vajrayana Practice by Kalu Rinpoche

(Unauthorized) people who engage in expounding on and listening
to the tantras will not only fail to receive blessings; they will create
immense demerit from divulging the secrecy of these teachings. A
person who has not obtained empowerment may pretend to practice
the liberating instructions, but, instead of bringing accomplishment,
the practice will create obstacles and countless other defects.
From Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, Empowerment

for the latter, the rinpoche's videos definitely do benefit for the particular case.
akāraḥ sarvavarṇāgryo mahārthaḥ paramākṣaraḥ|
mahāprāṇo hyanutpādo vāgadāhāravarjitaḥ|
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby smcj » Sat May 03, 2014 5:27 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:I poked around a little looking for that post. I didn't find it, but I found this of Malcolm's...
cf here.

I stand by my assessment that the question is falsifiable, but it will be done so by a yogi doing the experiment of receiving the recorded empowerment, not by the one giving it.

To say that it is not falsifiable experientially in this way is to say the Dharma is effectively not a living tradition and is nothing more than a placebo.
Last edited by smcj on Sat May 03, 2014 5:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby heart » Sat May 03, 2014 5:37 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
heart wrote:There is no quote from Garchen Rinpoche saying recordings are valid empowerments.
Directly from him? No. He sent his answer via an intermediary. Either way you will get it via an intermediary. I find it unlikely that Garchen Rinpoche will come here and answer directly to us, just to pander our pathetic little egos. I mean, really...

So now you do not trust the intermediaries?


I been around Tibetan Lamas enough to know that this is a good idea. If the question was asked in the proper way the should be able to provide a quote.

/magnus
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby heart » Sat May 03, 2014 5:45 pm

pensum wrote:But aren't excrement and urine the most material of supports? And as i have said numerous times, it depends on the empowerment being given: if a ritual text is being used that clearly states things like "place the vase on the disciple's head", "drink the water from the vase" and the like, does Tsele Natsok Rangdrol feel that this can be bypassed or skipped, and that specific empowerment still be considered to have been given properly?

While we're on the topic, haven't you ever noticed that when any lamas, tulkus or ordained monks or nuns are in the audience for an empowerment, the vajra master is always careful to ensure that they receive the required bonks on the head and material substances to ingest, first and foremost usually at the proper time in the ritual, while everyone else is left to wait until the end? Even the anointing with the water is given to them individually while the "general audience" gets a symbolic flick or two. Now if it was simply a question of faith and intention, as tulkus, lamas and the ordained obviously have more steadfast faith and pure intention you would think that they would be the ones who didn't require the physical actions and substances, as intention and visualization would suffice which they should be more adept at then the typical layperson, however this is not how it is done but rather the very opposite.


There is without doubt such an idea, the importance of the substances, that was expressed quite well by Malcolm. Tsele Natsok Rangdrol have an other idea.

Tsele Natsok Rangdrol wrote:If the nature of the empowerment has arisen in the disciple's mind then he has received the real empowerment, regardless of whether the superficial articles of empowerment are placed on his head.


It might or might not be important for our current discussion, but I think it is noteworthy.

/magnus
Last edited by heart on Sat May 03, 2014 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby qwerty13 » Sat May 03, 2014 5:46 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:Gar Drolma was very clear when they wrote back that Rinpoche indicated both live, on the net, and recorded count, I'm only clarifying what was said, not blowing a trumpet here that you have to believe it or accept or give a kazillion reasons why or why not...thats how he offered it, and from what I heard he taught it that way for those that wanted it, it was for those that have a connection with Rinpoche and at that time, I was also under the impression that the empowerments would be removed after a finite amount of time, I don't know what you consider your connection to Rinpoche....


I think that the area I bolded changes things a lot here. So maybe the recordings are meant for those who already have established dharma connection to Rinpoche by: Taking empowerment in person or at least in LIVE webcast, receiving oral transmission or instructions in person (or in live webcast). But without already established dharmaconnection recording wont work.

I`m just saying this because if this is true, then in that case I have received nothing form him.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Pero » Sat May 03, 2014 6:03 pm

pensum wrote:While we're on the topic, haven't you ever noticed that when any lamas, tulkus or ordained monks or nuns are in the audience for an empowerment, the vajra master is always careful to ensure that they receive the required bonks on the head and material substances to ingest, first and foremost usually at the proper time in the ritual, while everyone else is left to wait until the end?

Ah... good observation..... I wonder how that factors in with having to be present before the lama?

Even the anointing with the water is given to them individually while the "general audience" gets a symbolic flick or two. Now if it was simply a question of faith and intention, as tulkus, lamas and the ordained obviously have more steadfast faith and pure intention you would think that they would be the ones who didn't require the physical actions and substances, as intention and visualization would suffice which they should be more adept at then the typical layperson, however this is not how it is done but rather the very opposite.

Perhaps lamas know their faith is less than that of laypersons? :stirthepot:
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat May 03, 2014 6:16 pm

smcj wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:I poked around a little looking for that post. I didn't find it, but I found this of Malcolm's...
cf here.

I stand by my assessment that the question is falsifiable, but it will be done so by a yogi doing the experiment of receiving the recorded empowerment, not by the one giving it.

To say that it is not falsifiable experientially in this way is to say the Dharma is effectively not a living tradition and is nothing more than a placebo.
Take it up with Malcolm, not me.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Karma Jinpa » Sat May 03, 2014 6:50 pm

heart wrote:
Tsele Natsok Rangdrol wrote:If the nature of the empowerment has arisen in the disciple's mind then he has received the real empowerment, regardless of whether the superficial articles of empowerment are placed on his head.


It might or might not be important for our current discussion, but I think it is noteworthy.

qwerty13 wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:Gar Drolma was very clear when they wrote back that Rinpoche indicated both live, on the net, and recorded count, I'm only clarifying what was said, not blowing a trumpet here that you have to believe it or accept or give a kazillion reasons why or why not...thats how he offered it, and from what I heard he taught it that way for those that wanted it,it was for those that have a connection with Rinpocheand at that time


I think that the area I bolded changes things a lot here. So maybe the recordings are meant for those who already have established dharma connection to Rinpoche by: Taking empowerment in person or at least in LIVE webcast, receiving oral transmission or instructions in person (or in live webcast). But without already established dharmaconnection recording wont work.

I`m just saying this because if this is true, then in that case I have received nothing form him.

I think these observations by magnus and qwerty could be quite important. If Kyabjé Garchen Rinpoche takes the position of Tsele Natsok Rangdrol stated above and is making an effort to impart the essence of the empowerments in question, wouldn't this be akin to the "meaning" empowerment give by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche? Forgive me if I offend anyone, as that's not my intent in the slightest, but I daresay that Gar Rinpoche and ChNN Rinpoche are peers of the same caliber when it comes to Dzogchen...

And if these jenang/wangkur are only intended (or even effective) for those with a prior connection to Rinpoche, then maybe they are valid due to one having already entered into his mandala. I have no doubt that Rinpoche is accomplished enough in samadhi and abiding in the natural state to keep up any mandalas he chooses to. Maybe that could be labeled as blind faith by some, but I have come to this faith through investigation and for numerous reasons I won't go into here.

On a side note, I wonder if the designation of what kind of empowerments these are could help clarify things. Usually during the teachings in the empowerment sessions I've heard only translator mention that it's a "vase empowerment" and it's obvious that the four empowerments are symbolic (sometimes we're even shown cards for the other objects), but then half of the time a torma is also used and when Rinpoche himself is speedily reading the text he clearly says the word "wangkur." This issue of what "level" of empowerment it is probably doesn't affect most of us, but I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering what exactly is being given/received.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby ngodrup » Sat May 03, 2014 7:11 pm

One thing can be said with certainty.
Whatever the recoded video is or isn't,
it definitely is Rinpoche's permission
to practice these particular things.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby smcj » Sat May 03, 2014 7:35 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:I stand by my assessment that the question is falsifiable, but it will be done so by a yogi doing the experiment of receiving the recorded empowerment, not by the one giving it.

To say that it is not falsifiable experientially in this way is to say the Dharma is effectively not a living tradition and is nothing more than a placebo.
Take it up with Malcolm, not me.

I doubt he will take exception with it.

I imagine (guess) that the experiment could be abbreviated. If it is true that each deity/practice produces experientially different results, and someone is able to have that experience during the empowerment, then an accomplished practitioner would be able to tell while watching the recorded empowerment if it was successful or not.
Last edited by smcj on Sat May 03, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby pensum » Sat May 03, 2014 7:38 pm

Pero wrote:
pensum wrote:While we're on the topic, haven't you ever noticed that when any lamas, tulkus or ordained monks or nuns are in the audience for an empowerment, the vajra master is always careful to ensure that they receive the required bonks on the head and material substances to ingest, first and foremost usually at the proper time in the ritual, while everyone else is left to wait until the end?

Ah... good observation..... I wonder how that factors in with having to be present before the lama?
Even the anointing with the water is given to them individually while the "general audience" gets a symbolic flick or two. Now if it was simply a question of faith and intention, as tulkus, lamas and the ordained obviously have more steadfast faith and pure intention you would think that they would be the ones who didn't require the physical actions and substances, as intention and visualization would suffice which they should be more adept at then the typical layperson, however this is not how it is done but rather the very opposite.
Perhaps lamas know their faith is less than that of laypersons? :stirthepot:


Of course the simple answer is that it's just good etiquette as tulkus, lamas and the ordained would all be considered honoured guests thus are shown preferential treatment. On the other hand i've never heard of a tulku or lama who is going to carry the lineage receiving anything but the full, physical empowerment in all its details.
Last edited by pensum on Sat May 03, 2014 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby JohnJ » Sat May 03, 2014 7:42 pm

Karma Jinpa wrote: Maybe that could be labeled as blind faith by some, but I have come to this faith through investigation and for numerous reasons I won't go into here.


I feel the exact same way. That experiential connection with Rinpoche is what makes this particular topic difficult for me. But maybe I should just rejoice in the connection others and myself have with so great a teacher, accept the possibility that I have misunderstood him on the issue of recorded empowerments, and continue to practice and believe the best about the intentions of others- even when it seems to be in contradiction to the teachings of my precious spiritual friend.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat May 03, 2014 9:22 pm

smcj wrote:I doubt he will take exception with it.

I imagine (guess) that the experiment could be abbreviated. If it is true that each deity/practice produces experientially different results, and someone is able to have that experience during the empowerment, then an accomplished practitioner would be able to tell while watching the recorded empowerment if it was successful or not.
Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear: I agree with you, the problem is, as Malcolm pointed out, that siddhis can arise as a maturation of previous merit too. That means that the conclusions may be invalid.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby smcj » Sat May 03, 2014 10:17 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:...the problem is, as Malcolm pointed out, that siddhis can arise as a maturation of previous merit too. That means that the conclusions may be invalid.

I am a kindergarten student speculating about graduate school here, but I don't think that is so. Let us assume for a moment that the recipient was an accomplished yogi that had attained siddhi already. They would not need the initiation to make progress. Think Jomgon Kongtrul for example. He went around collecting empowerments. Presumably that was because each had something different to offer. I've heard that ideally, if one is sufficiently sensitive, one is supposed to have an experience during the empowerment. Such a person with sufficient sensitivity would be able to discern if an empowerment was authentic, if there was actually anything being confered or not. Otherwise a charlatan could have sold JK on a counterfeit empowerment, or not had the ability to confer empowerment. Does that sound right?

I don't think that there are many JK's around these days, but then again neither do I think a lama would have to be of his caliber in order to verify if an initiation had validity. I just used him as an example to make a point. I believe there are plenty of lamas alive today capable of the experiment.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby T. Chokyi » Sun May 04, 2014 3:35 am

qwerty13 wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:Gar Drolma was very clear when they wrote back that Rinpoche indicated both live, on the net, and recorded count, I'm only clarifying what was said, not blowing a trumpet here that you have to believe it or accept or give a kazillion reasons why or why not...thats how he offered it, and from what I heard he taught it that way for those that wanted it, it was for those that have a connection with Rinpoche and at that time, I was also under the impression that the empowerments would be removed after a finite amount of time, I don't know what you consider your connection to Rinpoche....


I think that the area I bolded changes things a lot here. So maybe the recordings are meant for those who already have established dharma connection to Rinpoche by: Taking empowerment in person or at least in LIVE webcast, receiving oral transmission or instructions in person (or in live webcast). But without already established dharmaconnection recording wont work.

I`m just saying this because if this is true, then in that case I have received nothing form him.


I'm sorry if I was a unskillful in the way I worded the sentence, as far as I know it was for those that wanted it, and feel the connection with Rinpoche (present tense). I didn't mean to imply a prior connection, but it is a good question, so it's sent to Gar Drolma now, heres how I worded it:

Just two more questions:

1) Are the recorded empowerments for any one that wants to take them or only for those practitioners
with a prior connection to Rinpoche?

Secondly

2) What kind of empowerment are these considered to be, what level or type are they?

The whole question is here, I just made it shorter:

"On a side note, I wonder if the designation of what kind of empowerments these are could help clarify things. Usually during the teachings in the empowerment sessions I've heard only translator mention that it's a "vase empowerment" and it's obvious that the four empowerments are symbolic (sometimes we're even shown cards for the other objects), but then half of the time a torma is also used and when Rinpoche himself is speedily reading the text he clearly says the word "wangkur." This issue of what "level" of empowerment it is probably doesn't affect most of us, but I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering what exactly is being given/received." This is quoting Karma Jinpa above on the thread.

We could ask for innovations beyond our wildest imaginations and ask Khenpo Samdup if he would give a whole teaching on this sometime, interactive live streaming with an open chat...but I'm not asking that....yet anyway... :stirthepot:
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 04, 2014 9:02 am

smcj wrote:Does that sound right?
To me it sounds right. But let's look at this from a slightly different angle: do you reckon a yogi with this sort of discernment would even bother trying to prove a teacher, the caliber of Garchen Rinpoche, wrong? Would they be suspicious enough of Garchen Rinpoche in order to test him in this manner? Would they doubt Garchen Rinpoches capacity and motivation? Somehow, I think not.
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One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby heart » Sun May 04, 2014 11:07 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:Does that sound right?
To me it sounds right. But let's look at this from a slightly different angle: do you reckon a yogi with this sort of discernment would even bother trying to prove a teacher, the caliber of Garchen Rinpoche, wrong? Would be suspicious enough of Garchen Rinpoche in order to test him in this manner? Would doubt Garchen Rinpoches capacity and motivation? Somehow, I think not.


I just want to remind you that we are not discussing Garchen Rinpoche's statement, since there is no statement saying recordings are valid empowerment's. Rather we are discussing what the good people of GarDrolma think Garchen Rinpoche means. It might not be much of a distinction for you but it is for me. If someone can produce a valid quote by Garchen Rinpoche I will promise to shut up, no matter what he says and no matter if I agree or not.

/magnus
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 04, 2014 11:32 am

How's this for an idea: we stop this whole "I thought, they thought, he thinks, I believe, etc..." until T. Chokyi receives his reply from GarDrolma. From Garchen Rinpoche, actually.

Any further comments in this thread should be confined to the discussion of scripture pertaining to empowerments and the commentaries by masters regarding this scripture, and how this pertains to the validity of online empowerments (in general) and recorded empowerments (specifically).

People (and this includes me :tongue: ) will refrain from expressing their doubt and faith regarding Garchen Rinpoche and focus on the teachings of masters (rather than their own self-serving ignorance).

Some 12 pages of opinions are already "out there" and seem to extensively cover all "sides".

If people contravene this arrangement this thread will be locked and reopened so that Garchen Rinpoches statement can be published.

I believe that this thread will be continue being of value if we intelligently discuss the issue rather than repeatedly trotting out our opinions.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 04, 2014 11:35 am

heart wrote:I just want to remind you that we are not discussing Garchen Rinpoche's statement, since there is no statement saying recordings are valid empowerment's. Rather we are discussing what the good people of GarDrolma think Garchen Rinpoche means. It might not be much of a distinction for you but it is for me. If someone can produce a valid quote by Garchen Rinpoche I will promise to shut up, no matter what he says and no matter if I agree or not.

/magnus
I think you missed the point. I could just as easily have replaced Garchen Rinpoche's name with ChNN's or Tenzin Wangyals, or HHDL, or ... as these are all accomplished teachers that utilise the medium of the internet to teach and give empowerments. The "who" is not the point, the point is that I imagine you would be hard pressed to find an accomplished yogi that would be willing to call into doubt a teacher of the caliber of... in order to engage in experiment to test the validity of their online empowerments and teachings.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby smcj » Sun May 04, 2014 11:37 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:Does that sound right?
To me it sounds right. But let's look at this from a slightly different angle: do you reckon a yogi with this sort of discernment would even bother trying to prove a teacher, the caliber of Garchen Rinpoche, wrong? Would they be suspicious enough of Garchen Rinpoche in order to test him in this manner? Would they doubt Garchen Rinpoches capacity and motivation? Somehow, I think not.

Tibetan culture being what it is, generally no. However if the request is made in such a way so as to have "for the benefit of the spread of Dharma and the welfare of sentient beings" as the premise, well maybe.

I'm not in a position to make such a request. I doubt that anybody will make such a request of a lama with stature, at least at this time. But if the issue gets to be some sort of impediment or asset in the greater spread of Dharma, I suspect it will be addressed.
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