Validity of recorded empowerments

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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 02, 2014 2:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Doesn't motivation/intention play a role in dependent origination?


If you take as a master someone who only intends to make money off of empowerment rites, as long as they are done correctly, you still are taking samaya with that person and so on, as well as agreeing to the commitments of Vajrayāna in general. Of course, if you find out later that person is merely a carpetbagger, a Dharma salesman, well, you can leave that guru's company, but you can't look back and say "oh, those empowerments I took were not valid".
Interesting. It does make for a VERY strange situation though.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 02, 2014 3:13 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:
Lhasa wrote: Thank you!


You're welcome Lhasa, I've been in empowerments with you by Garchen Rinpoche over the internet I do believe, I think I've seen you in the live chat Rinpoche allows at those empowerments, where we can request substances from Rinpoche, and also the deity images, sadhana, and mantras...I believe I've "seen" you there. Tashi Deleg to you!


This was never an issue. The issue is not whether someone can receive an empowerment through the internet.

The issue is whether one can receive an empowerment from watching a video of an empowerment that took place at an earlier time. This is impossible and I have given many reasons for why this is impossible.

I think many people are largely ignorant of what an empowerment actually is, and so believe all kinds of strange things are possible when in fact they are not. Such thinking truly involves abandoning the Buddha's teaching "where this exists, that exists, where this does not exist, that does not exist." Believing that one can receive an empowerment from watching a video is similar to believing that one can be sustained by looking at a picture of a fine meal. In reality, one will only be fed by sitting down at a real table and eating a real meal.

The point is not to deprive people of an avenue for making a Dharma connection. The point is to make sure that people actually make a Dharma connection.

The person who takes secret mantra on his own
is like a child who swallows burning iron.

Ārya-vajrakrodharājakalpa-laghutantra-nāma
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby untxi » Fri May 02, 2014 4:37 pm

I find this whole thread a little disturbing.

There are many very highly qualified masters, with genuine realization, who offer a variety of teachings across a wide range of topics (lam rim, dialectics, empowerments, tantric grounds & paths, kyerim and dzogrim instructions, pointing-out and pith instructions) in a wide range of contexts (one-one, informally through skillful means, in groups, in teaching retreats, in practice retreats)-- which happen to include modern technologies such as recording and webcasts.

I'm not sure why they offer these teachings as webcasts and various recordings. I'm not a highly qualified masters. I have no realizations, and as such I can't guess the intentions of these masters. I suppose there are corrupt lamas who do it to make money. I suppose there are other lamas who do it at the insistence of their sanghas for marketing. But I presume that most of these lamas do this out of compassion for their disciples.

What disturbs me about this thread is that this is now essentially criticizing the realization, motivation, ethics, etc., of very highly realized lamas, some of them mentioned by name. The "why" of that is simply because they have offered teachings, based on their own wisdom, through a webcast or a recording.

What also disturbs me is that there are people with real needs and interest who benefit from the webcasts. Now this potentially destroys their faith in their teacher-through-recording-medium, and undermines their confidence in what practice they are trying to engage in despite whatever challenges preclude travelling to see their teacher.

I'm not sure what's gained here. If you don't want to take empowerments or teachings by webcast then don't. If you do, then do.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby pensum » Fri May 02, 2014 4:42 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:
Lhasa wrote: Thank you!


You're welcome Lhasa, I've been in empowerments with you by Garchen Rinpoche over the internet I do believe, I think I've seen you in the live chat Rinpoche allows at those empowerments, where we can request substances from Rinpoche, and also the deity images, sadhana, and mantras...I believe I've "seen" you there. Tashi Deleg to you!

I think I'll share something of my own experience with others here:

Staying civilized and working things out politely and having respect for others when in a discussion is very important. Garchen Rinpoche said that the transmissions he gave "count" and I verified that with Gar Drolma center and it's verified with Khenpo Samdup. Every religion has it's "dogmas", for example in Christian beliefs, some say people have to be baptized by going under the water, and if that didn't happen, if only a sprinkle happened when someone was a baby then that does not count. There are actually people who debate this and give the koine Greek for the word baptism which is βάπτισμα "baptisomai", and they say that means "full immersion" under the water.... so here is a personal story that demonstrates what I'm saying... when my father, whom I love, was dying and suffering from pancreatic cancer the pastor of my mothers church and several of their men tried to drag him into a bath tub, basically getting him in there to submerse him in the water...seriously, my father was raised "Catholic" by his parents, the Catholics give babies that sprinkle (Christening) when they are babies, that is what my father had from his upbringing, but for the pastor of my mother's church this Christening was just not enough to get you into the Christian heaven because he foisted his strong and undebatable, undeniable "truth" that it was God's will that people be baptized by immersion or "no heaven", God would not accept you according to his Church and that Church's dogma...it's mortifying to think about it, but they tried to "foist" their strong opinion of what they thought was "truth" on my father who was soooo sick and weak at the time, so because they believed my father's soul would go to Christian hell realm they were dragging him into a bathtub. I only heard about this at a latter time, I was away, but this whole "debate" on this board at this time really reminds me very strongly of that pastors sectarian dogmatic belief and how it can play out by foisting one's own beliefs and how one "interprets" those beliefs onto others...conditioning others, and strongly foisting ones beliefs on others can do harm. Rather than allowing a man to have some dignity and allowing a man in severe pain to rest still, they made him move and dragged him while he was in pain into a tub... that pastor forced himself and his belief on someone else...the pastor was stupid enough to think he was doing God's work, but for that pastor God himself could not go beyond limitation.

T. Chokyi


However, in both cases that you describe the priests agree that baptism occurs upon physical contact with the water, so it is merely a question of their personal preference as to how much water is required. There is no doubt that no priest would ever say that one can be baptized simply by watching a recording of someone else being baptized. Similarly, in regard to empowerment (which also involves a sprinkling of water akin to baptism, anointing being the definition of abhisheka) there are minimal criteria for different types and stages of empowerments which are clearly defined and must be met and without which that particular empowerment is incomplete. This is very straightforward and clearly laid out in the tantras, and many of these basic criteria have been outlined in previous posts within this thread. What is necessary is to be clear about exactly what empowerment is being given or discussed and what the basic criteria are for that specific empowerment.

One of the difficulties in this thread has been the imprecision with which the term "empowerment" has been bandied about, as if all empowerments are exactly the same from among the four empowerments, the lineage, the specific deity, the specific ritual text used, the substances, mandala, etc. required, the prerequisites for both vajra master and recipient(s), and so on. I am under the impression that many posting here have little to no actual knowledge of any of these details, and so if there is to be any benefit from this thread it might be to recognize the limits of one's understanding and to put the effort forward to learn more about these matters which are so fundamental and important to any Vajrayana practitioner, especially considering that empowerment is the very basis of the Vajrayana path. So this is not a topic to be taken lightly or one about which anyone should be satisfied with their own assumptions or justifications, it requires honest investigation of the very principles of Vajrayana and what one is actually doing, receiving and committing to.
Last edited by pensum on Fri May 02, 2014 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri May 02, 2014 4:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:... Such thinking truly involves abandoning the Buddha's teaching "where this exists, that exists, where this does not exist, that does not exist."

I think it's more a question of which thisses go with which thats.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby supermaxv » Fri May 02, 2014 4:54 pm

I have no stake / comment in the validity of recorded / online empowerments (other than I would echo Malcolm and strongly recommend read up on it on the various openly available books on the subject), but if an argument on this message board is all it takes for a disciple to have his or her faith destroyed, I would wonder if that person has properly examined the guru before receiving empowerment, has correct motivation (or at least an inkling of what that means), and/or most importantly practices guru yoga.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 02, 2014 4:59 pm

untxi wrote:I find this whole thread a little disturbing.

There are many very highly qualified masters, with genuine realization, who offer a variety of teachings across a wide range of topics (lam rim, dialectics, empowerments, tantric grounds & paths, kyerim and dzogrim instructions, pointing-out and pith instructions) in a wide range of contexts (one-one, informally through skillful means, in groups, in teaching retreats, in practice retreats)-- which happen to include modern technologies such as recording and webcasts.


You are overshooting the mark here with your objections.

The only thing I question, and quite rightly so as far as I am concerned, is the practice of some students encouraging other students to believe that watching a video of an empowerment constitutes receiving that empowerment. I have never once called into question the practice of attending live webcasts, following a course through the mail, and so on.

My concern is quite real, since I think that this belief that one can receive an empowerment or even the transmission of a mantra from a recording will do serious damage to Vajrayāna teachings.

Imagine someone claiming they have attained siddhi from only attending a recorded empowerment and doing the retreat, and then seeking to initiate students into that said empowerment.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Lhasa » Fri May 02, 2014 6:07 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:
Lhasa wrote: Thank you!


You're welcome Lhasa, I've been in empowerments with you by Garchen Rinpoche over the internet I do believe, I think I've seen you in the live chat Rinpoche allows at those empowerments, where we can request substances from Rinpoche, and also the deity images, sadhana, and mantras...I believe I've "seen" you there. Tashi Deleg to you!



T. Chokyi


T. Chokyi, hi back to you. Yes, I've been there. I looked to see if I could pm you, couldn't find a way. Pm me, please?
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 02, 2014 6:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:The issue is not whether someone can receive an empowerment through the internet.
Actually, this was raised as an issue too. And your answer was basically that people cannot receive full empowerment via the internet, neither through live broadcast nor through a recording.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby untxi » Fri May 02, 2014 6:11 pm

I'm trying to establish the boundaries of this argument.

In a dialectical sense, I consider "recorded sound" in this instance to be any sound not directly connected with the body and consciousness of the empowering lama. Basically sound coming out of his or her own ritual implements or from his or her own vocal chords. I making that a definition as nobody would question whether it is appropriate to attend an empowerment with a lama in person-- the case where the sound giving the transmission and bestowing the blessings is directly connected with the body and mind of the lama.

The question, for me at least, is what types of "recorded sound" render an empowerment invalid.

In the case of a very large wang, like Kalachakra, where the sound is broadcast by a sound system over a large area-- that would be an example of "recorded sound" as I define it. By definition. One can't hear the lama, so one mic's the lama and sets up speakers. In this case, nobody would question whether this is appropriate as the sound is simultaneous with the lama's actual speech. Although there is a bit of a delay at the back, we still consider this good as we can goose-neck and see the lama, or at least the stage he or she is on. We at least get a sense that there is *something going on* at this place *over there*. Maybe video screens are set up. No matter. We're all good with this.

At the same time, I can see questioning even that. I've been to some very large wangs and some very small wangs, and for me, the most powerful have been with a few people and one of my root teachers. The hippodrome vajrayana scene, with the exception of Kalachakra, could be framed as problematic.

It seems there is some question receiving an empowerment by webcast as Garchen Rinpoche has done. This is probably the first time I've ever heard anyone anywhere anytime question Garchen Rinpoche's wisdom, but all's good. What he's doing isn't much different than the giant mega-wang. The sound is still simultaneous with the lama's speech. Again, a bit of a delay. What's missing is a sense that there's something going on *over there*, *in that place*.

I can see questioning even that. Some of my teachers would question not having a full two-day wang without preparatory teachings. Some would object to a variety of ritual aspects, and that in a webcast wang, one doesn't contact samaya objects. That said, if one has faith in Garchen Rinpoche (or any other such lama) then it's good. If we have samaya, he's a fully enlightened being-- particularly easy with him-- and as such one has faith. The lack of spatial context is not worrisome if one has confidence that that lama's mind pervades all of space. Again, easy with Garchen Rinpoche.

And then there's putting a DVD in and taking the empowerment that way. This *really* can't be what we're talking about, can it? Do people really do this?

That said, as a thought experiment, how different is that from the giant mega-wang or webcast with a few second lag between when the lama talks and the sound that's heard? In this case, the lag is just much longer. Months or years. I know that's, crazy, but if we accept a webcast wang as valid, would be accept it valid broadcast to Mars where the lag is larger? What's the cut-off?

Malcolm wrote:My concern is quite real, since I think that this belief that one can receive an empowerment or even the transmission of a mantra from a recording will do serious damage to Vajrayāna teachings.
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 02, 2014 6:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:Imagine someone claiming they have attained siddhi from only attending a recorded empowerment and doing the retreat, and then seeking to initiate students into that said empowerment.
And if the siddhi were verified?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby T. Chokyi » Fri May 02, 2014 6:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:
Lhasa wrote: Thank you!


You're welcome Lhasa, I've been in empowerments with you by Garchen Rinpoche over the internet I do believe, I think I've seen you in the live chat Rinpoche allows at those empowerments, where we can request substances from Rinpoche, and also the deity images, sadhana, and mantras...I believe I've "seen" you there. Tashi Deleg to you!


This was never an issue. The issue is not whether someone can receive an empowerment through the internet.

The issue is whether one can receive an empowerment from watching a video of an empowerment that took place at an earlier time. This is impossible and I have given many reasons for why this is impossible.

I think many people are largely ignorant of what an empowerment actually is, and so believe all kinds of strange things are possible when in fact they are not. Such thinking truly involves abandoning the Buddha's teaching "where this exists, that exists, where this does not exist, that does not exist." Believing that one can receive an empowerment from watching a video is similar to believing that one can be sustained by looking at a picture of a fine meal. In reality, one will only be fed by sitting down at a real table and eating a real meal.

The point is not to deprive people of an avenue for making a Dharma connection. The point is to make sure that people actually make a Dharma connection.

The person who takes secret mantra on his own
is like a child who swallows burning iron.

Ārya-vajrakrodharājakalpa-laghutantra-nāma



:tongue:

So you aren't even curious what Khenpo Samdup would say or teach about this?

Garchen Rinpoche, and Khenpo Samdup and a whole Sangha Gar Drolma in Ohio made sure to question Rinpoche completely and he said those count. If you don't want to know more about how they count you don't have to know but I want to know. I thought practitioners would want to know more, as this "exception" Rinpoche made is certainly not a "main stream" move, so all I did was share what I know and gave Gar Drolma an email so it could be clarified again...so rather than driving your points why don't you wait to hear something of what they say (they call Khenpo Samdup: Khenpo Rinpoche) these teachers know what they are doing, did you ever think they may know as much or more than you do about this topic.

I have had empowerments in person just like many of the practitioners here, and from more than one Guru and lineage, just like so many here, but maybe a little different ....my teachers are like my family and have stayed in my home and continue to do so on multiple occasions. Malcolm I"ve met you in person both with Bhakha Rinpoche a kazillion years ago out west, Khenpo Jigme Phutsok in 1992 or 93, my memory slips as to the exact year when he came to New England, and with CHNN in person just not that long ago in Conway during CHNN's Dakini empowerment, but you probably are not aware of that, not a problem, I am not "house bound" and it won't destory my faith either way if people consider Malcolm's right or Garchen Rinpoche right on this board, I am not taking sides in a "debate", what I did was clarify what a teacher said and I took that teacher Garchen Rinpoche at his word. His word is legitimate to many people not just me, maybe not to you, but that is totally up to you, I thought you might be more open though and take the opportunity to explore this while it happens, this happened not long ago, and I don't know if it is a one time thing or for everything he will do.

Garchen Rinpoche is the holder of the 13 Dharmas of Drikung, or as some would say "the owner" then some would think it really it isn't up to anybody else except him and his lineage (which supports him) if he gives those transmissions any way he sees fit to give them on a relative level, he did make this "exception" to a very traditional and formal way to give these transmissions, and said both live net and recordings "count", to say he didn't have "skillful means" in mind, that he does not offer benefit this way and to say this can cause people harm... well, this is what you say rather than just exploring what the intention of this Rinpoche is, or why he did this, or anything else specific about this. Did you ever consider that he may know more than you do about these 13 Dharmas of Drikung and how to give them, and perhaps so does Khenpo Samdup Rinpoche, why argue back and forth without knowing what a very thoroughly trained Rinpoche in Drikung would teach about this, I can't imagine that you don't see this as an opportunity to learn something.

Gar Drolma was very clear when they wrote back that Rinpoche indicated both live, on the net, and recorded count, I'm only clarifying what was said, not blowing a trumpet here that you have to believe it or accept or give a kazillion reasons why or why not...thats how he offered it, and from what I heard he taught it that way for those that wanted it, it was for those that have a connection with Rinpoche and at that time, I was also under the impression that the empowerments would be removed after a finite amount of time, I don't know what you consider your connection to Rinpoche....but I don't think he was referring to what other teachers do or don't do (past, present or future) he was only saying what he was doing at that time with those 13 Golden Dharmas.

Sincerely,
T. Chokyi
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 02, 2014 6:39 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Imagine someone claiming they have attained siddhi from only attending a recorded empowerment and doing the retreat, and then seeking to initiate students into that said empowerment.
And if the siddhi were verified?


There are no siddhis without empowerment,
just as there is no oil even if sand is pressed.
Whoever proudly explains the tantras and citations
to those without empowerment,
both master and disciple go to hell
as soon as they die even if there are siddhis.

-- Mahāmudratilaka-tantra
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 02, 2014 6:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:There are no siddhis without empowerment,
just as there is no oil even if sand is pressed.
Whoever proudly explains the tantras and citations
to those without empowerment,
both master and disciple go to hell
as soon as they die even if there are siddhis.

-- Mahāmudratilaka-tantra
I'm not denying the validity of this statement, but if siddhis arose then it would verify the validity of the empowerment, right? Or maybe not? Can empowerments theoretically ripen over lifetimes?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 02, 2014 6:51 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:There are no siddhis without empowerment,
just as there is no oil even if sand is pressed.
Whoever proudly explains the tantras and citations
to those without empowerment,
both master and disciple go to hell
as soon as they die even if there are siddhis.

-- Mahāmudratilaka-tantra
I'm not denying the validity of this statement, but if siddhis arose then it would verify the validity of the empowerment, right? Or maybe not? Can empowerments theoretically ripen over lifetimes?


Nope, it is mentioned that even if one shows signs of accomplishment, one is merely exhausting one's merit.
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 02, 2014 6:58 pm

So how can one verify if the siddhi that arose, even in the case of a proper empowerment, are not just based on the exhaustion of merit? There are Siddhas in non-Buddhist tantric traditions too, do they receive correct empowerment or are their siddhi based exclusively on the exhaustion of merit?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 02, 2014 7:12 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:So how can one verify if the siddhi that arose, even in the case of a proper empowerment, are not just based on the exhaustion of merit?


One can infer on the basis of the kindess of the person whether they are a bodhisattva. Otherwise there is no way you or I can tell.


There are Siddhas in non-Buddhist tantric traditions too, do they receive correct empowerment or are their siddhi based exclusively on the exhaustion of merit?


The latter.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 02, 2014 7:14 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The issue is not whether someone can receive an empowerment through the internet.
Actually, this was raised as an issue too. And your answer was basically that people cannot receive full empowerment via the internet, neither through live broadcast nor through a recording.


My answer was clarifying that ChNN said he could not confer a full empowerment through the net and why he felt this was so. The Dalai Lama on the other hand, opined that people watching Kalacakra and participating actively via a webcast could receive the empowerment in that way. But here, this is all taking place within the context of an active mandala.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Karma Jinpa » Fri May 02, 2014 7:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:The Dalai Lama on the other hand, opined that people watching Kalacakra and participating actively via a webcast could receive the empowerment in that way. But here, this is all taking place within the context of an active mandala.

This is interesting to hear. Did His Holiness say this at the most recent Kalachakra in D.C. a few years ago, or was it at some other place/time?

The reason I ask is because I attended a Guhyasamaja wang he gave back in 2010 or 2011 via webcast and he specifically said that those viewing it online had not received the empowerment. Don't remember if his reasoning was the lack of contact with the substances/supports or not, or if he even gave one. Sounds like either the Dalai Lama is changing his mind on webcast wangs, or that Kalachakra is a special case/exception to the rule.

Also worth noting that His Holiness has said on numerous occasions that he gives the Kalachakra empowerment as skillful means to give introductory and fundamental teachings since tons of people will come from far and wide for such a high empowerment but the vast majority of them won't receive it in actuality.
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།


:namaste:
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Karma Jinpa
 
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Re: Validity of recorded empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Karma Jinpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The Dalai Lama on the other hand, opined that people watching Kalacakra and participating actively via a webcast could receive the empowerment in that way. But here, this is all taking place within the context of an active mandala.

This is interesting to hear. Did His Holiness say this at the most recent Kalachakra in D.C. a few years ago, or was it at some other place/time?

The reason I ask is because I attended a Guhyasamaja wang he gave back in 2010 or 2011 via webcast and he specifically said that those viewing it online had not received the empowerment. Don't remember if his reasoning was the lack of contact with the substances/supports or not, or if he even gave one. Sounds like either the Dalai Lama is changing his mind on webcast wangs, or that Kalachakra is a special case/exception to the rule.

Also worth noting that His Holiness has said on numerous occasions that he gives the Kalachakra empowerment as skillful means to give introductory and fundamental teachings since tons of people will come from far and wide for such a high empowerment but the vast majority of them won't receive it in actuality.


It might be the number if people attending but I don't know.
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